Vehicle to Load V2L

Scot_39

Firstly I come to it not from the point of view of new car ownership or leaseholders - who wont give a fig about longevity or thd risk of any other bells and whistle features loaded into modern cars failing in time and costing a fortune to repair cf second hand values.

A bit like tge battery itself - a 3-4 year old car unlikely to need a 10k battery or expensive battery power electonics refitted replacement - but those well under 10 have done so.

But second hand purchaser likely to face the trade in and ex lease stock on the forecourt - and these days a  long time between swaps.


So lets put sone numbers on tge potential for V2G.

The average dual fuel home uses c7-8kWh per day.  

(As more move over to electric heating - far more.)

That's in an efficient BEV equivalent of say 25-30 miles driving or just over 9000 miles.  More than UK average - especially for second cars likely to be at home most of the day to maximise V2G access.

Less of a risk vs say a 30k miles per annum repmobile.  But again I am not interested in buying a 100k mile BEV.

So it is more than possible that a low mileage BEV with V2G could see battery use more than double indicated mileage might suggest.

And unless notifiable to buyers, arguably no better than finding youve bought a car with a clocked vehicle odometer.

Clocking is of course a criminal offence if done by trade for gain.

And the easiest way to avoid that risk is not to buy a V2G vehicle second hand.

pensionpawn

QrizB said:

pensionpawn said:

irjmorris said:

I am lucky enough to have an EV which has the V2L  vehicle to load feature 
I very rarely used my tumble dryer as it just gobbles up electricity 
However on occasions I use it now and use my car to run it, then when I get my cheap 6p per kWh tarriff just replace the charge used from my cars  battery 
If you have any other electric guzzling devices you need to use in the day do the same although I can only think of tumble dryer

By V2L do you mean running an extension lead to your car, or do you have a bidirectional charger? The former holds no interest to me however when the later becomes economically available, that will be the day I buy my first EV.

The OP has the former, Vehicle To Load (V2L).

What you're looking for is Vehicle To Home / Vehicle To Grid (V2H/V2G) which has been successfully trialled with Nissan ChaDeMo vehicles but hasn't yet been made commercially available for CCS ones.

I think @michaels has the Nissan system and is mostly satisfied with it?

Scot_39 said:

So your going to risk depleting a £10k plus battery pack and associated electronics in a £40k plus BEV to save maybe 10-20p per drying session.

The other point of view is that using the battery is what it's there for. Saving it for Sunday best is a waste of your investment.

If your battery is good for 8000 cycles you can fully charge and discharge it every day for 20 years, or once a week for 140 years. The usable life of a vehicle is much closer to 20 years than 140.

Yes, I've been aware of VTH since finding out, and almost applying for, the trial by Indra a few years ago. The battery in the car wouldn't just be used for "Sunday best" as it would be powering the house every day, especially from tea time to breakfast time, which is when the majority of our import occurs. It would also support peak time discharge.

DullGreyGuy

mmmmikey said:
The load that V2L puts on the battery pales into insignificance compared with other things that effect the value of the car, to the point where it probaby doesn't even make a marginal difference. Firstly, as matelodave points out it's probably equivalent no more than a few miles driving so I expect the impact on the battery is negligible. 

But the point is that its 365 days a year, sure a single day is going to have a de minus impact say equivalent to 10 miles a day, but over 3 years thats an extra 11,000 miles almost and typically that would have an impact on the value of a 3 year old secondhand vehicle. 

The OP actually suggested using it much wider than just a tumble dryer though so feasibly you could be giving the idea to someone with electric heating and were you to draw that off the vehicles battery the impact would be much more than 10 miles per day. 

pensionpawn

Scot_39 said:

Except the reality is that they typically have far lower cycles - maybe 1000-1500 - more typical from a quick google - but that an improvement vs older batteries maybe stuggling at 70% by 500.

And those wanting to use them as domestic stores will be cycling far more regularly than other similar -  low mileage vehicles - that would interest me.  Again for cycles reasons and lifespan / charge capacity depletion.

So to me V2G is a red flag feature as a second hand buyer looking to have some useful resale point as well.

Who would want a 12 yr old EV that's been used daily as a home battery ?

When most of those only have 10 yr lifespans - some as little as 5, the best maybe 15.

So why would I buy one on four wheels in a BEV that I cannot then easily sell.

We're both agreeing that it's down to personal circumstances. I would never consider buying a 12 year old car, let alone an EV, having bought (and kept..) new for the last 27 years. I also wouldn't expect anyone to part with serious money to buy a 15 year old car from me. Of course the battery, just like a Powerwall 3 for example, will deteriorate over the years, however don't we factor that in..? 

matt_drummer

Scot_39 said:

Firstly I come to it not from the point of view of new car ownership or leaseholders - who wont give a fig about longevity or thd risk of any other bells and whistle features loaded into modern cars failing in time and costing a fortune to repair cf second hand values.

A bit like tge battery itself - a 3-4 year old car unlikely to need a 10k battery or expensive battery power electonics refitted replacement - but those well under 10 have done so.

But second hand purchaser likely to face the trade in and ex lease stock on the forecourt - and these days a  long time between swaps.


So lets put sone numbers on tge potential for V2G.

The average dual fuel home uses c7-8kWh per day.  

(As more move over to electric heating - far more.)

That's in an efficient BEV equivalent of say 25-30 miles driving or just over 9000 miles.  More than UK average - especially for second cars likely to be at home most of the day to maximise V2G access.

Less of a risk vs say a 30k miles per annum repmobile.  But again I am not interested in buying a 100k mile BEV.

So it is more than possible that a low mileage BEV with V2G could see battery use more than double indicated mileage might suggest.

And unless notifiable to buyers, arguably no better than finding youve bought a car with a clocked vehicle odometer.

And the easiest way to avoid that risk is not to buy a V2G vehicle second hand.

Have you ever looked at or been in a modern ev?

All of the battery data is readily available, how many times it has been charged and discharged, how it has been charged (ac/dc, that is slow charging and fast charging) and what the usable capacity is.

It is much, much easier to check the health of an ev than it is on an ice powered car.

Modern evs have excellent battery management systems and battery health is of no concern whatsoever compared to the rest of the car.

When I say evs, I mean full evs, not plug in hybrids, they are a problem.

There are many videos about high mileage evs that you can watch, battery degredation is minimal.

Watch this if you are interested and some of the other videos.

Is a HIGH MILEAGE EV still any good at LONG DISTANCES? | Real-world range test after 217,000 miles

The car is three years old and been used as a taxi covering 216,000 miles in 3 years.

It still has 88% of its battery capacity and what it has lost will have gone in the first year or so.

These cars just don't lose range like  a Nissan Leaf, they have proper battery management 

It's as good as new and cost virtually nothing to run other than tyres and electricity.

So much cheaper than any ice could ever be.

Its up to you what you think, but you really are missing out by judging the quality of a used ev using traditional  ways of assessing the value and quality of a car.

I understand, it's a new technology and these cars are not the same as we have been used to.

They are, however, really good, and much better in most respects than what we have been driving for the last hundred years or so.

I have just given my four year old ev back to the leasing company.

Four years ago it said it would do 350 miles fully charged and on Wednesday it said it would do 335 miles. And the reality is, it would do more than that driven nicely.

Apart from the lease payments it cost nothing other than electricity and an MOT test.

I never used the brakes from the day I got it to the day I gave it back and nothing went wrong at all.

Even the 216,000 mile taxi in the video I linked is on its original brake disks and pads.

All that needed changing were tyres and windscreen wipers plus a couple of suspension bushes, in three years and 216,000 miles!

Qyburn

DullGreyGuy said:

But the point is that its 365 days a year

It's a bit of a leap from the original post, "on occasions I use it" becoming every day.

pensionpawn

mmmmikey said:

Scot_39 said:

Except the reality is that they typically have far lower cycles - maybe 1000-1500 - more typical from a quick google - but that an improvement vs older batteries maybe stuggling at 70% by 500.

And those wanting to use them as domestic stores will be cycling far more regularly than other similar -  low mileage vehicles - that would interest me.  Again for cycles reasons and lifespan / charge capacity depletion.

So to me V2G is a red flag feature as a second hand buyer looking to have some useful resale point as well.

Who would want a 12 yr old EV that's been used daily as a home battery ?

When most of those only have 10 yr lifespans - some as little as 5, the best maybe 15.

So why would I buy one on four wheels in a BEV that I cannot then easily sell.

Hi @Scot_39 forgive me for being so blunt, I generally agree with alot of what you post. But to be honest I think you've completely lost the plot here  

The load that V2L puts on the battery pales into insignificance compared with other things that effect the value of the car, to the point where it probaby doesn't even make a marginal difference. Firstly, as @matelodave points out it's probably equivalent no more than a few miles driving so I expect the impact on the battery is negligible. Secondly, do you really think that when the owner of a new EV comes to trade it in after a few years (which is what most new car owners do) the dealer is even go to ask if it's been used for V2L? And in any event, a huge numbers of EVs (I think the majority???) are now leased and/or company cars  so any issue is one for the leasing company etc.. The market for 10 year old EVs with this kind of technology doesn't even exist yet so nothing but speculation to support your assumptions. 

And keep in mind you're coming from a different place to most folk who would probably react by saying "V2L - that's nice - err, what is it?" My point is that your concerning yourself about something which I expect something that most people wouldn't even consider.

So IMHO the OP makes a good point and it's great to be highlighting a feature which many may not know exists. Plugging the tumble dryer or whatever in via an extension lead may not be convenient for a lot of folk, but for others it will be easy and could potentially save £5 or £10 off the monthly electricity bill.

EDIT: this is intended to be friendly disagreement, I'm not meaning to question your parentage or anything

I do agree with Scot_39 regarding his observation that the number of cycles could be significant. Plenty of traditional battery owners will daily import for three (cheaper) hours overnight to export for three peak rate hours over teatime. With my 7.1 kW due east / west facing panels I have modelled using 2 PW3's (27 kWhrs) to daily export 24 kWhrs (from a blend of import / generation) just over the peak three hours, with the battery suppressing import at all other times. This currently has a value of around £1800 pa for me. Now the cost of 2 PW3's is around £16k, which just doesn't work for me, however when you consider that for 2.5 to 3 times £16k you could buy a decent VTH (one day...) EV, with over twice the capacity of 2 PW3's, then I'm happy to wait (as I have done so) to see what materialises. I'm in no rush...

Grumpy_chap

I have a genuine question here about V2L.
What load can the V2L from a car actually support?  All of the marketing I have seen around V2L shows the power out socket from the car being used to perform very low power functions.  Devices such as a tumble drier are towards the higher end of domestic power loads.  
Now, this is not just about the maximum discharge rate from the battery (which is high to support the demands of driving an EV) but also about the ratings for the V2L circuits and components (which may be designed to a budget).

doodling said:

Why are people time shifting tumble dryer energy consumption (which will inevitably have a cost in battery life and cycle losses) rather than just drying clothes when electricity is cheap?  Do people really have such tight washing deadlines that they can't wait for their clothes to dry?

This seems a very valid comment.
In fact why time shift the power load for the tumble drier, or time shift the use of the tumble drier when (and especially as we enter the warmer months) hanging the washing to dry naturally saves even more money and energy and environmentally?

MWT

Grumpy_chap said:

I have a genuine question here about V2L.
What load can the V2L from a car actually support?  All of the marketing I have seen around V2L shows the power out socket from the car being used to perform very low power functions.  Devices such as a tumble drier are towards the higher end of domestic power loads.  
Now, this is not just about the maximum discharge rate from the battery (which is high to support the demands of driving an EV) but also about the ratings for the V2L circuits and components (which may be designed to a budget).

Typically 13-15A, but not all devices rated at around 3kW or so will work as some require a larger initial current so may not function.

If you are being careful then also consider the earth implications as the vehicle is conveniently isolated by its tyres so there is often a recommendation to only use equipment that is double insulated, typically devices designed to be used outdoors.

V2L is a bit of a side-show really, handy for a lot of things outside and away from home, but V2H/G is the solution I would wait for...

Not tempted to use it for home loads as we have a Powerwall solution for that.

Grumpy_chap

MWT said:

V2L is a bit of a side-show really, handy for a lot of things outside and away from home, but V2H/G is the solution I would wait for...

I am particularly amused by the MG Motors description of how V2L can be useful:

"ease the concerns of those with range anxiety - the worry that your car does not have enough charge to complete a journey. This is because electric car owners are no longer solely reliant on charging stations when they are on the road. If you are out of power then you can charge your batteries via other cars"

Not at all selfish to charge your car so you can go for miles but leave your mate with a flat traction battery.