Vehicle to Load V2L

irjmorris

I am lucky enough to have an EV which has the V2L  vehicle to load feature 
I very rarely used my tumble dryer as it just gobbles up electricity 
However on occasions I use it now and use my car to run it, then when I get my cheap 6p per kWh tarriff just replace the charge used from my cars  battery 
If you have any other electric guzzling devices you need to use in the day do the same although I can only think of tumble dryer

Scot_39

So your going to risk depleting a £10k plus battery pack and associated electronics in a £40k plus BEV to save maybe 10-20p per drying session.

Even less when factor in storage  - chemical process heat losses and power electronic conversion losses. 

I am in no rush to buy an EV - but will be buying a recent 2nd hand - 2-3 years old maybe - petrol by summertine.

To replace the current diesel I have run for 12 years now.  That returns 50mpg - and exhaust still so clean the MOT has had to record as a failure to register some emissions.

Don't think I'd ever plan on running a BEV that long though.

I certainly won't be buying a similar mileage / age EV when have to - one that's got V2L  - due to risk it has been used as a daily domestic store. Even if OK for me - it will impact my future buyers with si ilar concerns - and so likely resale.

pensionpawn

irjmorris said:

I am lucky enough to have an EV which has the V2L  vehicle to load feature 
I very rarely used my tumble dryer as it just gobbles up electricity 
However on occasions I use it now and use my car to run it, then when I get my cheap 6p per kWh tarriff just replace the charge used from my cars  battery 
If you have any other electric guzzling devices you need to use in the day do the same although I can only think of tumble dryer

By V2L do you mean running an extension lead to your car, or do you have a bidirectional charger? The former holds no interest to me however when the later becomes economically available, that will be the day I buy my first EV.

pensionpawn

Scot_39 said:

So your going to risk depleting a £10k plus battery pack and associated electronics in a £40k plus BEV to save maybe 10-20p per drying session.

Even less when factor in storage  - chemical process heat losses and power electronic conversion losses. 

I am in no rush to buy an EV - but will be buying a recent 2nd hand - 2-3 years old maybe - petrol by summertine.

To replace the current diesel I have run for 12 years now.  That returns 50mpg - and exhaust still so clean the MOT has had to record as a failure to register some emissions.

Don't think I'd ever plan on running a BEV that long though.

I certainly won't be buying a similar mileage / age EV when have to - one that's got V2L  - due to risk it has been used as a daily domestic store. Even if OK for me - it will impact my future buyers with si ilar concerns - and so likely resale.

It depends on your personal circumstances. A standalone battery does not fiscally justify itself to me, however a battery with 5 wheels probably will. I see no difference between those who buy batteries to time-shift night (cheap) import to teatime peak (high rate) export on a daily basis. Also, I buy new and keep a car until it falls apart.

QrizB

pensionpawn said:

irjmorris said:

I am lucky enough to have an EV which has the V2L  vehicle to load feature 
I very rarely used my tumble dryer as it just gobbles up electricity 
However on occasions I use it now and use my car to run it, then when I get my cheap 6p per kWh tarriff just replace the charge used from my cars  battery 
If you have any other electric guzzling devices you need to use in the day do the same although I can only think of tumble dryer

By V2L do you mean running an extension lead to your car, or do you have a bidirectional charger? The former holds no interest to me however when the later becomes economically available, that will be the day I buy my first EV.

The OP has the former, Vehicle To Load (V2L).

What you're looking for is Vehicle To Home / Vehicle To Grid (V2H/V2G) which has been successfully trialled with Nissan ChaDeMo vehicles but hasn't yet been made commercially available for CCS ones.

I think @michaels has the Nissan system and is mostly satisfied with it?

Scot_39 said:

So your going to risk depleting a £10k plus battery pack and associated electronics in a £40k plus BEV to save maybe 10-20p per drying session.

The other point of view is that using the battery is what it's there for. Saving it for Sunday best is a waste of your investment.

If your battery is good for 8000 cycles you can fully charge and discharge it every day for 20 years, or once a week for 140 years. The usable life of a vehicle is much closer to 20 years than 140.

Qyburn

A cycle would be full or maybe 80% discharge and recharge. A tumble dryer using 4kWh is probably less than 10%. I would expect discharge at 2kW would be kinder to the battery than driving the car.

matelodave

I'd guess that a tumble dryer cycle of around 2-4kwh is about equivalent to nipping down the shops and back around 6-12 miles worth and probably a lot less peak load than getting a a ton and half of car moving from standstill.

Sounds like a load of faffing around to save a few pence but if it make you happy then get on with it.

DullGreyGuy

irjmorris said:

I am lucky enough to have an EV which has the V2L  vehicle to load feature 
I very rarely used my tumble dryer as it just gobbles up electricity 
However on occasions I use it now and use my car to run it, then when I get my cheap 6p per kWh tarriff just replace the charge used from my cars  battery 
If you have any other electric guzzling devices you need to use in the day do the same although I can only think of tumble dryer

Maybe better to get a more modern tumble dryer? Ours uses 0.8kwh to dry 9kg of wet clothes, obviously less if you dont fill it up to the gunnels 

pensionpawn said:
It depends on your personal circumstances. A standalone battery does not fiscally justify itself to me, however a battery with 5 wheels probably will. I see no difference between those who buy batteries to time-shift night (cheap) import to teatime peak (high rate) export on a daily basis. Also, I buy new and keep a car until it falls apart.

Electric cars feel fundamentally different though because of the deterioration of the battery. Sure ICE lose horses as they age but it's vastly slower and it never gets like the Nissan Leafs you see for sale with just 25km range left in the battery. At what point do you call it a day? 

Scot_39

Except the reality is that they typically have far lower cycles - maybe 1000-1500 - more typical from a quick google - but that an improvement vs older batteries maybe stuggling at 70% by 500.

And those wanting to use them as domestic stores will be cycling far more regularly than other similar -  low mileage vehicles - that would interest me.  Again for cycles reasons and lifespan / charge capacity depletion.

So to me V2G is a red flag feature as a second hand buyer looking to have some useful resale point as well.

Who would want a 12 yr old EV that's been used daily as a home battery ?

When most of those only have 10 yr lifespans - some as little as 5, the best maybe 15.

So why would I buy one on four wheels in a BEV that I cannot then easily sell.

mmmmikey

Scot_39 said:

Except the reality is that they typically have far lower cycles - maybe 1000-1500 - more typical from a quick google - but that an improvement vs older batteries maybe stuggling at 70% by 500.

And those wanting to use them as domestic stores will be cycling far more regularly than other similar -  low mileage vehicles - that would interest me.  Again for cycles reasons and lifespan / charge capacity depletion.

So to me V2G is a red flag feature as a second hand buyer looking to have some useful resale point as well.

Who would want a 12 yr old EV that's been used daily as a home battery ?

When most of those only have 10 yr lifespans - some as little as 5, the best maybe 15.

So why would I buy one on four wheels in a BEV that I cannot then easily sell.

Hi @Scot_39 forgive me for being so blunt, I generally agree with alot of what you post. But to be honest I think you've completely lost the plot here  

The load that V2L puts on the battery pales into insignificance compared with other things that effect the value of the car, to the point where it probaby doesn't even make a marginal difference. Firstly, as @matelodave points out it's probably equivalent no more than a few miles driving so I expect the impact on the battery is negligible. Secondly, do you really think that when the owner of a new EV comes to trade it in after a few years (which is what most new car owners do) the dealer is even go to ask if it's been used for V2L? And in any event, a huge numbers of EVs (I think the majority???) are now leased and/or company cars  so any issue is one for the leasing company etc.. The market for 10 year old EVs with this kind of technology doesn't even exist yet so nothing but speculation to support your assumptions. 

And keep in mind you're coming from a different place to most folk who would probably react by saying "V2L - that's nice - err, what is it?" My point is that your concerning yourself about something which I expect something that most people wouldn't even consider.

So IMHO the OP makes a good point and it's great to be highlighting a feature which many may not know exists. Plugging the tumble dryer or whatever in via an extension lead may not be convenient for a lot of folk, but for others it will be easy and could potentially save £5 or £10 off the monthly electricity bill.

EDIT: this is intended to be friendly disagreement, I'm not meaning to question your parentage or anything

doodling

Hi,

In my view this is a bonkers discussion.

Why are people time shifting tumble dryer energy consumption (which will inevitably have a cost in battery life and cycle losses) rather than just drying clothes when electricity is cheap?  Do people really have such tight washing deadlines that they can't wait for their clothes to dry?

If there is a real concern that your tumble dryer might catch fire then the solution is to maintain it so that it doesn't (given that the majority of tumble dryer fires are related to fluff accumulation and/or poor design, both of which are avoidable).  I would also note that heat pump dryers (the most efficient type) are unlikely to present a significant fire risk (although there is always the possibility of the heat pump fluid leaking which is often flammable but we put up wiith that in our fridges which run 24 hours a day).