Extending provisional redundancy date

alinwales

I’ve been searching about ‘provisional redundancy’ and how it works in terms of the step between provisional and formal notice, and the time in between, as a date I was given last August is now being changed.

 Briefest summary I could write:

Our office is being closed down, and I am on a team where we are all being made redundant – no pooling. There are >20  in total facing redundancy across different departments in our office, some planned to terminate immediately, others involved in a more orderly shutdown of ongoing projects.

The financial benefit to receiving my redundancy pay is significant. Which is both fortunate for me when I receive it, and unfortunate for the mess that I am having to endure to get it (along with others who have been through redundancy before and without doubt this is the worst experience they’ve endured by far).

I am fortunate to both have skills that will put me in good stead for future employment, and also financially comfortable enough to not need to jump from this job straight to another, especially with the redundancy money. Sorry if I sound resentful to the opportunity to work longer and thus earn more for a company that I feel are messing me (and others) around.

 

May 2024 – Notice of provisional redundancy

June-October 2024 – Consultation period, and two individual meetings (which were pretty useless).  The second meeting documentation states ‘ it’s proposed that your employment would end on June 2025’  (note, no specific date!)

Consultation process ended October 2025, redundancies commence.

All my department except me and one other have now gone, most through redundancy, a couple resigned. They were allowed to be flexible with their end dates, to ensure they got their annual bonus, and tied in to new work employment. I’m working on a different project to them so that’s why I’m being treated differently – plus I’m of a seniority that they would be stuffed without me. The company want to complete the project and keep me there until it is, even with delays that we are suffering through no fault of our own.

Their plan is to provide a 4 week notice of a final date, which becomes an ‘official’ period, they will then pay PILON for 3 mths, which they agreed to provide to everyone should they request it instead of working a formal notice period.

 

In the last week, I have been told my end date is now ‘end of July’. It appears that I am not being allowed to negotiate this (though I tried, they might give me some extra cash – peanuts - but that might be dependent on certain project outcomes being completed, which I absolutely wouldn’t sign up for given the amount of stuff out of my control that will screw it all up!!).

My understanding is that legally, I have not been served a formal notice of my redundancy, so they can keep stringing me along for as long as they like, as all law relates to what happens during your formal notice period to which I haven’t been provided one yet)?

Or, is there an opportunity to argue that my employment should have ended 3 months after the consultation officially closed?

So what’s next? I plan to reject the offer to stay an extra month (but thank you for the continuing opportunity!) and see how they deal with it. Perhaps seek legal advice. I’m trying to reach out to ACAS but they’re ‘exceptionally busy’ at the moment. I'm grateful for any opinion, thank you.

Hoenir

You are free to resign whenever you wish. What's your issue with remaining another month? At least you now have certainty and can make plans. 

FlorayG

Hoenir said:

You are free to resign whenever you wish. What's your issue with remaining another month? At least you now have certainty and can make plans. 

If the OP resigns they won't get the redundancy payout; and not having a final date gives no certainty at all. OP I think that until you get given an official date there's not much you can do. I'm currently going through redundancy, we were told "mid June" in January but then got an official 12 week notice on 21st March after our third Individual Consultation Meeting. That was a requirement (to give the notice) but perhaps it's only my company requirement to give notice at ICM3 and not a legal one? I've since been asked to stay an extra month but said no, which is allowed without penalty once you have an official leave date. I can't think of anything you can do until you are given that date

alinwales

FlorayG said:

Hoenir said:

You are free to resign whenever you wish. What's your issue with remaining another month? At least you now have certainty and can make plans. 

If the OP resigns they won't get the redundancy payout; and not having a final date gives no certainty at all. OP I think that until you get given an official date there's not much you can do. I'm currently going through redundancy, we were told "mid June" in January but then got an official 12 week notice on 21st March after our third Individual Consultation Meeting. That was a requirement (to give the notice) but perhaps it's only my company requirement to give notice at ICM3 and not a legal one? I've since been asked to stay an extra month but said no, which is allowed without penalty once you have an official leave date. I can't think of anything you can do until you are given that date

Thanks yes, I want to keep my redundancy pay option open (else I would have resigned last year), and if I resigned today I'd have to work 3 month notice which takes me to end of June, my initial provisional redundancy date, so that would not be sensible.

It's the uncertainty that is the issue. You're 'lucky' as you got your official notice. I think for us they've perhaps decided that if they offer PILON, then the formal notice period can be effectively waived. I can't have it both ways. Just that of course I compare myself with everyone who were able to go on their own terms.

I haven't had ICM3, but do expect to have one... that is when I'll be given my formal notice, and that could be at any time.

So the main issue is that is there any restrictions on the time from when the consultation process ends to when a formal notice period is given. I'm suspecting not, which is why they can have me (and others) over a barrel.

Of course as people are leaving, the office is becoming quieter and those who remain are getting a tad resentful as the goalposts move.

New_in_the_fens

About 15 years ago, my husband was told about being made redundant - some similarities to your case. 

He had to wait 18 months to get a leave date. Whilst I don’t know whether legislation allowed that then, or allows that now, I can empathise with the resentment. 

Some people did choose to resign - good for the company as they didn’t have to pay enhanced redundancy. Hard for those who stayed - but they decided it was worth it to get the payout. And that increased as they ticked over another years service. 

You do wonder whether this is a purposeful approach for a business - it costs them far less if they annoy you so much you resign, rather than them paying you off 😳

Hoenir

New_in_the_fens said:

You do wonder whether this is a purposeful approach for a business - it costs them far less if they annoy you so much you resign, rather than them paying you off 😳

Why the angst. Been here myself on two occasions. Both times was the last out the building ( both were company takeovers). Locked up and posted the keys. End of the day the employer offers a sweetner with favourable financal terms. You continue to get paid , accrue futher holiday leave and receive benefits such as company pension contributions.  Both employers were amenable to me attending job interviews during office hours. Relationships are ultimately two way. Just business nothing personal. 

New_in_the_fens

Hoenir said:

Why the angst. Been here myself on two occasions. Both times was the last out the building ( both were company takeovers). Locked up and posted the keys. End of the day the employer offers a sweetner with favourable financal terms. You continue to get paid , accrue futher holiday leave and receive benefits such as company pension contributions.  Both employers were amenable to me attending job interviews during office hours. Relationships are ultimately two way. Just business nothing personal. 

Not angst - merely an observation and in recognition to the OP that there can be frustration - everyone has different circumstances, and people will choose which way they jump. 

Waiting for the payout is the right outcome for some people (it was for my husband as he was using the money to set up his own business and change career), but it doesn’t change the fact it can be frustrating time.  

I have also been made redundant twice, and having been an employee rep for one of those times and listening to the very personal stories and impacts of those affected, it can be very difficult for people to accept it’s business and nothing personal. 

alinwales

I wouldn't say angst... stress perhaps and feeling of no control when they company say they will be flexible and helpful and then make these changes - and a bit of jealousy for those who could leave early on their own terms  while a small team on our complex project are putting in a lot of effort (until now, that is), and get nothing additional to compensate (pension and payment will come as perks with a new job, I can feel it...).  So relationships being 2 way, not 1 way as this feels.

So it is part vent, but the genuine question still remains of how much stringing along can they do because they expect me to stay for the redundancy?

lincroft1710

If there is work for you to do, your job is not redundant and an employer would be in the wrong in making you redundant. If you want to go now, then your only option is to resign and yes I realise you won't get any redundancy money 

Sarahspangles

alinwales said:

I wouldn't say angst... stress perhaps and feeling of no control when they company say they will be flexible and helpful and then make these changes - and a bit of jealousy for those who could leave early on their own terms  while a small team on our complex project are putting in a lot of effort (until now, that is), and get nothing additional to compensate (pension and payment will come as perks with a new job, I can feel it...).  So relationships being 2 way, not 1 way as this feels.

So it is part vent, but the genuine question still remains of how much stringing along can they do because they expect me to stay for the redundancy?

Maybe it would help you to reframe the package including PILON as ‘golden handcuffs’. In return you have  uncertainty about the end date.

The end of July isn’t an optimal time to leave because holidays are at peak prices and recruitment is slow. As it’s now four months away, have you got holiday planned before then? It sounds like you need a break. You can control that.

alinwales

Thank you for your comments and opinions, seeing it from both sides.

Golden Handcuffs sums it up very well.  I know I can't have everything my way, and if the alternative was to get an official 3 month notice and working it instead of PILON then that would be a tough decision and perhaps then then I would just accept some uncertainty, though having been in a limbo since last August (when I was told my end date would be June), to move the goalposts this late on just throws up the defensive mechanisms, especially when most of my department have already gone on their terms (and others within my company in my position are  grumbling about being taken for granted with no consideration).

I do plan to clarify (with HR in copy) that I was asked if I wanted to stay longer, to which I said I'd rather not thank you, but am being pushed to anyway. Won't make a difference but at least puts in writing the 'informal' chat, alongside the formal 'your end date is now this' without any report of my initial response to the request <- which is all HR know about. (Yes I know HR work for the company not for me..)

I do have some time off booked and plenty of accrued leave which I intend to use as much as can be approved.

Thank you again. Seems like I do have to just suck it up and accept whatever smelly stick they poke me with whilst dangling the carrot. I appreciate the reality check.