Bank fraud (over) protection?

Mawreeca

I recently attempted to make a large transfer of money (£20k+) from my account (with Chase UK) to a close family friend whose account is also with Chase UK.  As expected, this was flagged by their security systems as 'unusual' and I was told to phone them to verify, which I was happy to do.  I passed all of the security stages, and started on the verification process.  The sum in question is a gift, and a contribution to a deposit to buy a property.  The recipients are my goddaughter, whom I have obviously known all my life (she is 32 yrs old) and her husband, into whose account the money was going.  After around 10 - 15 mins of answering what the operative had warned might be considered 'intrusive' questions and listening to tortuous descriptions of various types of bank fraud, all of which I already knew about, and confirming that I was not the victim of any of these, I was placed on hold and after a few more minutes, the operative returned and told me that the transfer was being (actually had already been) refused.  My protests about this decision were in vain - I offered to send documentary proof of our connection, of the ongoing mortgage application, of their good standing and employment, etc etc - he could not have been less interested.  I asked to speak to a supervisor - 'there are none'  I pointed out that this was in fact my money, I had given him every bit of information he asked for, listened to all his 'scam' information - and still needed to give my godchild this money.  He then advised that I should withdraw it IN CASH to hand to them. I could scarcely believe that he was advising this - what if I had been a vulnerable customer? - and told him so, including advising that they live more than 300 miles away from me, which again he did not seem to see as an impediment or huge risk to me and my money.  I was getting nowhere, so told him to raise a complaint - which he did.  2 weeks later, I have received a badly worded secure message to my account telling me that the payment was cancelled for the 'security of my account', that the alternate 'get cash out' alternate method 'protects the bank' and that my complaint was being closed.
My questions are - has this happened to anybody else?  Do I have any further recourse to force them to act in accordance with my clearly expressed wishes?

Hoenir

As an observation. Has your goddaughter checked and ascertained from their lender that a gift from you is an acceptable source of a deposit? Normally it won't be. 

eskbanker

Mawreeca said:

I pointed out that this was in fact my money, I had given him every bit of information he asked for, listened to all his 'scam' information - and still needed to give my godchild this money.  He then advised that I should withdraw it IN CASH to hand to them. I could scarcely believe that he was advising this - what if I had been a vulnerable customer? - and told him so, including advising that they live more than 300 miles away from me, which again he did not seem to see as an impediment or huge risk to me and my money.

Although you're saying this in response to refusal, is it possible that you failed the attitude test earlier in the conversation too?

Nasqueron

Mawreeca said:

I recently attempted to make a large transfer of money (£20k+) from my account (with Chase UK) to a close family friend whose account is also with Chase UK.  As expected, this was flagged by their security systems as 'unusual' and I was told to phone them to verify, which I was happy to do.  I passed all of the security stages, and started on the verification process.  The sum in question is a gift, and a contribution to a deposit to buy a property.  The recipients are my goddaughter, whom I have obviously known all my life (she is 32 yrs old) and her husband, into whose account the money was going.  After around 10 - 15 mins of answering what the operative had warned might be considered 'intrusive' questions and listening to tortuous descriptions of various types of bank fraud, all of which I already knew about, and confirming that I was not the victim of any of these, I was placed on hold and after a few more minutes, the operative returned and told me that the transfer was being (actually had already been) refused.  My protests about this decision were in vain - I offered to send documentary proof of our connection, of the ongoing mortgage application, of their good standing and employment, etc etc - he could not have been less interested.  I asked to speak to a supervisor - 'there are none'  I pointed out that this was in fact my money, I had given him every bit of information he asked for, listened to all his 'scam' information - and still needed to give my godchild this money.  He then advised that I should withdraw it IN CASH to hand to them. I could scarcely believe that he was advising this - what if I had been a vulnerable customer? - and told him so, including advising that they live more than 300 miles away from me, which again he did not seem to see as an impediment or huge risk to me and my money.  I was getting nowhere, so told him to raise a complaint - which he did.  2 weeks later, I have received a badly worded secure message to my account telling me that the payment was cancelled for the 'security of my account', that the alternate 'get cash out' alternate method 'protects the bank' and that my complaint was being closed.
My questions are - has this happened to anybody else?  Do I have any further recourse to force them to act in accordance with my clearly expressed wishes?

You can escalate a complaint to the FOS as they have closed it, though I don't know if they would force the bank to move your money and I agree the resolution offered is ludicrous, carrying that much cash is an inherent risk to you 

Middle_of_the_Road

Hoenir said:

As an observation. Has your goddaughter checked and ascertained from their lender that a gift from you is an acceptable source of a deposit? Normally it won't be. 

Having recently made such a gift to a family member, I'm curious why such occurances, would not be an "acceptable source of a deposit"
The bank transfer was also from Chase, and processed without issue.

born_again

You could of course vote with your feet & switch to another bank.

Or send the gift to the goddaughters solicitor as a payment if they will allow.

piker57

Do you by any chance have another account in your name with a cheque book. If so transfer the money to yourself (I assume Chase haven't frozen your account as you've not said that) and write your goddaughter a cheque from your other account.

[Deleted User]

"I have received a badly worded secure message to my account telling me that ... the alternate 'get cash out' alternate method 'protects the bank'..."

Credit where credit's due, that's very honest of them. That's exactly what it's about, their own self-interest. The welfare and convenience of the customer is not secondary, it's non-existent.

Unfortunately, that's how banks operate, and to an extent are compelled to operate due to government legislation. If you're masochistic enough to read through the banks' terms and conditions it becomes apparent that they can do almost anything with the money you deposit, with no requirement to be accountable to the customer or even to communicate with them. I would say leave and go elsewhere, but they're all the same.

Ironically, if you did try to follow the cash withdrawal option, they would outright deny you then too. And if your god-daughter tried to deposit £20k cash, they'd deny her too.

dealyboy

I am sorry for this awful experience @Mawreeca, when as far as you were concerned you were innocently conducting a transfer of your own money to somebody you trusted, albeit a rather large sum.

I once had the intrusive questioning for a few minutes when I was attempting a transfer, but not involving Chase, indeed it was a much lower sum to an external bank account of mine. I answered the questions honestly and respectfully and engaged with the person. After a couple of pauses following which further questions were asked the money was released.

The bank did not know me and had no history of transactions, some might say they were a bit over the top in the circumstances but others might think the precautions were appropriate. I think I was caught by the 'algorithm' with maybe a random element. Was I insulted?, Was I indignant? ... No ... I was miffed but it could have been worse, the transaction could have been blocked for a time period or my account could have been suspended.

I have read of several occasions when an account has been blocked or even closed, without notice and without information. Whereas I can't say that Chase's actions were reasonable or even justifiable, in this day and age they may have been understandable. I would suggest that your conduct in responding to the questioning politely and openly might result in a better outcome next time.

[Deleted User]

dealyboy said:

 Was I insulted?, Was I indignant? ... No ... I was miffed but it could have been worse, the transaction could have been blocked for a time period or my account could have been suspended.

And that's what it's come down to. People are actually grateful to the banks for not denying them access to their own money for conducting a perfectly legitimate transaction. It's like thanking the police when, after stopping you on your street and demanding you identify yourself and tell them every detail of your business, they don't shoot you in the head. This may sound harsh but I'm honestly tired of this capitulation to, and normalisation of, tyrannical and unjust business practices.

grumpy_codger

[Deleted User] said:

dealyboy said:

 Was I insulted?, Was I indignant? ... No ... I was miffed but it could have been worse, the transaction could have been blocked for a time period or my account could have been suspended.

... I'm honestly tired of this capitulation to, and normalisation of, tyrannical and unjust business practices.

You forgot to mention that these practices are imposed on banks by our nanny state.

Yes, code of practice for authorised push payment (APP) scams is 'voluntary', but it's hard to believe that banks voluntarily decided to refund tens of thousands to all idiots victims.

Hence the advice to withdraw cash.