Freezing house | How to improve heat

ThisIsWeird

Arsenal2019 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Setting 4 on a TRV is quite high - equates to around 24oC - so would very rarely be used unless you had folk that really needed such a high room temp.
In effect, your TRVs, at '4', are essentially fully 'on', and won't even start to shut the rads down untill the room temp is comfortably over 20oC - which yours patently ain't.
So, the Q is - how hot are your rads? How long can you keep your hands on them for?
No idea what the problem is, but I fear a new door and some loft hatch lagging ain't going to sort it.
Are you controlling each room properly - eg bedrooms only on for, say, an hour before get up, and an hour before bed - off at all other times?

hi

I have just had a look around and I can  say each radiator in the house is set at 4 or 5 (max). I presume by what you said that this is wrong and should lower it to around three. I was of the mindset the higher you had it the quicker the temperature rose - obviously not?
I could control the temperature by having it on an hour before I got up and now before bed as I can control it via Hive, but I don’t have it on in the mornings to try and save money. we both work shifts so never really have any set times however when we do have it on we try limited to the evening.
we do have the radiators only in each room even in the rooms that we use the least like the back room which is used as an office/games room/make up room. we have it on in those rooms even when they are not in use to keep the what room warm as we don’t want to suffer from condensation or mould.
to answer  your question about the radiators… now that I bleed them all of them are extremely hot to touch and I cannot place my hand on them for long periods of time

You can have your TRVs on 4 or 5 if you like, but it defeats their objective. However, it looks as tho' your house has greater issues, so that's the least of your issues...

TRVs; if you set it to '3', then that roughly correlates to 20oC. What then happens is, as the room temp rises and approaches 20oC, the TRV will begin to close off, being fully off at 20oC (allowing for general inaccuracies). So, yes, you could say that by having it set at '4' (~24oC) will help get it to 20oC a tiny bit more quickly, in that it won't begin to shut off at ~19 as before, but the temp (on a properly functioning system) will then overshoot the required 20oC, and just waste a lot of energy getting you too warm.

Since your rooms are really struggling to get to even 20oC, then having the TRVs set higher than this is moot!

You can usually 'feel' what the TRV is doing, how close it is to begin going off. If you open it fully, and then start to turn it slowly closed, you should feel that it's 'loose' to begin with, and turns very easily. Then at some point you'll start to feel some resistance - that's when the pin inside the head extends enough to land on the metal pin on the valve, to begin pressing it down and shutting the valve off. As you carry on turning, you should feel this resistance increase, and that's when the head is properly pushing the pin down, and off. Ok, where you begin to feel that resistance is a rough indication of the actual room temp. Can you sense this resistance? If so, where on the TRV scale does it occur - at around '2', for example?

We can pretty much ignore all that, tho', as it really seems as tho' there's something seriously amiss with your house. If your rads are getting properly hot - and they seemingly are - then your house should be warmupable pretty easily. But it isn't. So the only conclusion I can come to (unless the rads have been seriously under-sized) is that your house is inherently very poorly insulated. Or, is excessively draughty - that can easily sap away your heat.

Being 2004 - and a terrace, so two well-insulated sides! - should make it an easy house to heat, so summat is clearly amiss.

Noise from windows is usually a very good indication of poor sealing, so I'd certainly focus on that. Your candle test might not be as good as you think, as the direction of air travel could just as easily be outwards! Especially if we are talking upstairs bedrooms - the draught could be coming up from downstairs and exiting via your windows! Try a smoke taper instead, running it all along the window seals.

Not having condemnation is generally a good thing - but it also indicates 'ventilation', possibly excessive! 

Have the floor coverings been changed anywhere - carpet to laminate, for example? Try running your tapers along the skirting/floor covering gaps too.

And then test at the internal doors - shut the sitting room door, and try your taper around the edges. Ditto the upstairs rooms - but see if the breeze is going t'other way.

Your Hive usually gives you a comment on 'heating performance'. Go to where you manually change the temp, and then 'click' on the 'graph' symbol top-RH corner. That should show the temp graph for each 24-hour period, and show when the heating has been on. It should also give a comment alongside a green dot - "Heating Performance - Good" (and that's for my draughty 1930's house...). This means that 'the house has achieved the required temperature in the time Hive reckons is expected'. I suspect yours will say "Brass Monkeys"?

Could you take a screenshot, please, along with the graphs from the past few days?

I'm really confused by how bad your house appears to be. It doesn't make much sense.

What to do? IF your front door is obviously draughty, then either re-seal it or replace it. (However, although in a 'poor state', if it's actually sealing ok, then don't expect a transformation with the new door - timber is not a bad insulating material for a door).

Check your windows using a smoke taper. If you find obvious draughts, then perhaps get a 'window wizard' round to check them, and hopefully fit new seals. Meanwhile, you can test what effect they are having by fitting some cheap film over them for a few weeks - you can buy kits for not much money.

Check your flooring, and for draughts around the perimeter under the skirting.

Yes, check your levels of loft insulation, and add some to the hatch if needed - and check the hatch itself seals ok.

But, 12oC?! Brrrrrr :-(

Could you post the Hive's stat's, please?

 

Arsenal2019

Woahh thanks for the lengthy response!! I really appreciate the time you’ve taken to reply!!!!

I start to feel resistance at around 2 on the TrV’s on the radiators. I’ve done this test when they’re off. Or should I do when the heating is on sorry.

Yeah it does seem as tho there is a lot of noise from the windows but they’re properly closed. They’ve for the vents too at the top of the window which you can open and close and they’re fully shut too. I couldn’t even begin to comment on the sealant around the windows - I mean, they look in decent condition but I can’t say any further than that.

It’s an end terraced house sorry so it’s got three sides- which I guess doesn’t help 

I will have to look at buying some smoke taper as I don’t have anything in the house which could even replicate this? Unless a blown out candle but I doubt that very much. But I will purchase it and do as you say with it.

I don’t believe the floors have been changed by the previous owners of the house. I have only been here since August and I haven’t touched the flooring. But the laminate floors are very cold, especially upstairs. 

I’ve read up on those films that you can stick on windows and I am in the process of getting them delivered so will hopefully have them on soon. I’ve read mixed reviews on them but it’s worth a shot.

I’ve screenshot the last few days. The heating has been on in the house and will post them below. I cannot however find the wording which you say should be there.  I presume this may be because I do not have Hive plus

Arsenal2019

ThisIsWeird said:

Arsenal2019 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Setting 4 on a TRV is quite high - equates to around 24oC - so would very rarely be used unless you had folk that really needed such a high room temp.
In effect, your TRVs, at '4', are essentially fully 'on', and won't even start to shut the rads down untill the room temp is comfortably over 20oC - which yours patently ain't.
So, the Q is - how hot are your rads? How long can you keep your hands on them for?
No idea what the problem is, but I fear a new door and some loft hatch lagging ain't going to sort it.
Are you controlling each room properly - eg bedrooms only on for, say, an hour before get up, and an hour before bed - off at all other times?

hi

I have just had a look around and I can  say each radiator in the house is set at 4 or 5 (max). I presume by what you said that this is wrong and should lower it to around three. I was of the mindset the higher you had it the quicker the temperature rose - obviously not?
I could control the temperature by having it on an hour before I got up and now before bed as I can control it via Hive, but I don’t have it on in the mornings to try and save money. we both work shifts so never really have any set times however when we do have it on we try limited to the evening.
we do have the radiators only in each room even in the rooms that we use the least like the back room which is used as an office/games room/make up room. we have it on in those rooms even when they are not in use to keep the what room warm as we don’t want to suffer from condensation or mould.
to answer  your question about the radiators… now that I bleed them all of them are extremely hot to touch and I cannot place my hand on them for long periods of time

You can have your TRVs on 4 or 5 if you like, but it defeats their objective. However, it looks as tho' your house has greater issues, so that's the least of your issues...

TRVs; if you set it to '3', then that roughly correlates to 20oC. What then happens is, as the room temp rises and approaches 20oC, the TRV will begin to close off, being fully off at 20oC (allowing for general inaccuracies). So, yes, you could say that by having it set at '4' (~24oC) will help get it to 20oC a tiny bit more quickly, in that it won't begin to shut off at ~19 as before, but the temp (on a properly functioning system) will then overshoot the required 20oC, and just waste a lot of energy getting you too warm.

Since your rooms are really struggling to get to even 20oC, then having the TRVs set higher than this is moot!

You can usually 'feel' what the TRV is doing, how close it is to begin going off. If you open it fully, and then start to turn it slowly closed, you should feel that it's 'loose' to begin with, and turns very easily. Then at some point you'll start to feel some resistance - that's when the pin inside the head extends enough to land on the metal pin on the valve, to begin pressing it down and shutting the valve off. As you carry on turning, you should feel this resistance increase, and that's when the head is properly pushing the pin down, and off. Ok, where you begin to feel that resistance is a rough indication of the actual room temp. Can you sense this resistance? If so, where on the TRV scale does it occur - at around '2', for example?

We can pretty much ignore all that, tho', as it really seems as tho' there's something seriously amiss with your house. If your rads are getting properly hot - and they seemingly are - then your house should be warmupable pretty easily. But it isn't. So the only conclusion I can come to (unless the rads have been seriously under-sized) is that your house is inherently very poorly insulated. Or, is excessively draughty - that can easily sap away your heat.

Being 2004 - and a terrace, so two well-insulated sides! - should make it an easy house to heat, so summat is clearly amiss.

Noise from windows is usually a very good indication of poor sealing, so I'd certainly focus on that. Your candle test might not be as good as you think, as the direction of air travel could just as easily be outwards! Especially if we are talking upstairs bedrooms - the draught could be coming up from downstairs and exiting via your windows! Try a smoke taper instead, running it all along the window seals.

Not having condemnation is generally a good thing - but it also indicates 'ventilation', possibly excessive! 

Have the floor coverings been changed anywhere - carpet to laminate, for example? Try running your tapers along the skirting/floor covering gaps too.

And then test at the internal doors - shut the sitting room door, and try your taper around the edges. Ditto the upstairs rooms - but see if the breeze is going t'other way.

Your Hive usually gives you a comment on 'heating performance'. Go to where you manually change the temp, and then 'click' on the 'graph' symbol top-RH corner. That should show the temp graph for each 24-hour period, and show when the heating has been on. It should also give a comment alongside a green dot - "Heating Performance - Good" (and that's for my draughty 1930's house...). This means that 'the house has achieved the required temperature in the time Hive reckons is expected'. I suspect yours will say "Brass Monkeys"?

Could you take a screenshot, please, along with the graphs from the past few days?

I'm really confused by how bad your house appears to be. It doesn't make much sense.

What to do? IF your front door is obviously draughty, then either re-seal it or replace it. (However, although in a 'poor state', if it's actually sealing ok, then don't expect a transformation with the new door - timber is not a bad insulating material for a door).

Check your windows using a smoke taper. If you find obvious draughts, then perhaps get a 'window wizard' round to check them, and hopefully fit new seals. Meanwhile, you can test what effect they are having by fitting some cheap film over them for a few weeks - you can buy kits for not much money.

Check your flooring, and for draughts around the perimeter under the skirting.

Yes, check your levels of loft insulation, and add some to the hatch if needed - and check the hatch itself seals ok.

But, 12oC?! Brrrrrr :-(

Could you post the Hive's stat's, please?

 

Please see above 

ThisIsWeird

Arsenal2019 said:

I start to feel resistance at around 2 on the TrV’s on the radiators. I’ve done this test when they’re off. Or should I do when the heating is on sorry. No, that's fine - and does seem to suggest the room temp is at around '2' = 15oC, very roughly, but chilly by most standards. The TRVs seem to be working ok.

Yeah it does seem as tho there is a lot of noise from the windows but they’re properly closed. They’ve for the vents too at the top of the window which you can open and close and they’re fully shut too. I couldn’t even begin to comment on the sealant around the windows - I mean, they look in decent condition but I can’t say any further than that. If you open each window, have a good listen to the outside - especially higher pitched noises such as the swish of car tyres, rustle of leaves, bridsong, etc - and then shut the window, as you pull that last wee bit shut and crank the handle, that noise should drop off dramatically. If it doesn't, it suggest poor window sealing. You can confirm by using smoke - even joss-sticks will do! If there are draughts, then perhaps worth getting a window repair specialist fellow out - one that comes recommended.

It’s an end terraced house sorry so it’s got three sides- which I guess doesn’t help. Ok, but still - it's a 2005 house, so should have decent insulation!

I don’t believe the floors have been changed by the previous owners of the house. I have only been here since August and I haven’t touched the flooring. But the laminate floors are very cold, especially upstairs. Unless you really like the laminate, then consider going back to carpet, thick underlay (there may be some thermal types), and ensuring the skirting boards are sealed where they meet the sub-floor.

I’ve read up on those films that you can stick on windows and I am in the process of getting them delivered so will hopefully have them on soon. I’ve read mixed reviews on them but it’s worth a shot. IF your issue is (at least partly) down to draughty windows, then they should help. But it's really as a test, and to see you through winter before you get the windows checked.

I’ve screenshot the last few days. The heating has been on in the house and will post them below. I cannot however find the wording which you say should be there.  I presume this may be because I do not have Hive plus.

See bits in bold.

I don't have 'Plus' either - it's just something I've noticed on the screen.

Perhaps it's scared to tell you how bad your house is...

twopenny

The film (I used to use Clingfilm) can make a difference. But the heat has to be there in the first place so it's unlikely to feel warmer all day, just for a while after the heating has been on.

Check the seals around the windows to see if they are soft or hard....mine were fine then suddenly went crispy. I got them replaced by a professional as I couldn't find the right seal. She didn't charge a lot and fixed the door locks right as she did it.

My front bay window, north east facing open to the elements, always felt cold but I could find no draught. Still felt like a slight draught despite new seals when the wind came direct.

I was told, that's just the cold air through the glass and believed it. No candles or smoke showed any signs of a draught.

Then I decided to use masking tape over the frames and trickle vents inside and voila! much warmer. It's all low tack and peals off very easily when it gets warmer and is quick to put up. I have cotton nets so you can't see it.

Yes to the loft hatch. I lived in my last place for years before I noticed that the cold upstairs was coming from draught around the hatch.

My new bungalow also used to have the loft hatch rise up and clump down if the wind was in the right direction    

ThisIsWeird

Your Hive screenshots aren't that bad, Arsenal? Your house does appear to warm up when you have the heating on long enough, and high bills over winter is to be expected - they should drop dramatically very soon.

Are you only heating the rooms that need it? Every rad off in any room that is not being used? Bedrooms just on for a half-hour or so before bedtime, off overnight, and on again for a half-hour before wake-up?

If anyone is cold in bed, then get a thicker duvet or fit an all-night leccy-blanket.

Anyhoo, please report back with your smoky checks, and also on any effect from the film - but do bear in mind that it's getting more mild in any case

Arsenal2019

See bits in bold.

I don't have 'Plus' either - it's just something I've noticed on the screen.

Perhaps it's scared to tell you how bad your house is...

Hahaha wow- not sure how I didn’t see that 😅

Arsenal2019

twopenny said:

The film (I used to use Clingfilm) can make a difference. But the heat has to be there in the first place so it's unlikely to feel warmer all day, just for a while after the heating has been on.

Check the seals around the windows to see if they are soft or hard....mine were fine then suddenly went crispy. I got them replaced by a professional as I couldn't find the right seal. She didn't charge a lot and fixed the door locks right as she did it.

My front bay window, north east facing open to the elements, always felt cold but I could find no draught. Still felt like a slight draught despite new seals when the wind came direct.

I was told, that's just the cold air through the glass and believed it. No candles or smoke showed any signs of a draught.

Then I decided to use masking tape over the frames and trickle vents inside and voila! much warmer. It's all low tack and peals off very easily when it gets warmer and is quick to put up. I have cotton nets so you can't see it.

Yes to the loft hatch. I lived in my last place for years before I noticed that the cold upstairs was coming from draught around the hatch.

My new bungalow also used to have the loft hatch rise up and clump down if the wind was in the right direction    

The seals are soft around the windows. There is the odd crack in there but I presume that is because it has been poorly applied but it is very minuscule. I guess I could get someone round to have a look at the seals to see what they think and hopefully they’re not cowboys  and just say yes it needs replacing

I’ll definitely look into getting the windows filmed as it is just something extra isn’t it That I can use

Arsenal2019

ThisIsWeird said:

Your Hive screenshots aren't that bad, Arsenal? Your house does appear to warm up when you have the heating on long enough, and high bills over winter is to be expected - they should drop dramatically very soon.

Are you only heating the rooms that need it? Every rad off in any room that is not being used? Bedrooms just on for a half-hour or so before bedtime, off overnight, and on again for a half-hour before wake-up?

If anyone is cold in bed, then get a thicker duvet or fit an all-night leccy-blanket.

Anyhoo, please report back with your smoky checks, and also on any effect from the film - but do bear in mind that it's getting more mild in any case

Hello again!

yeah that’s what I thought too. The results didn’t look too bad in my eyes as well.  I have the heating on and the radiator is on in each room in the house purely to keep each room warm to minimise the risk of condensation/damp. All rooms are used obviously some more than others.
I’ll have a look at buying that smoke stuff today and in a few days I will give it a go and get back to you. Thanks again

HHarry

ThisIsWeird said:

Your Hive screenshots aren't that bad, Arsenal? Your house does appear to warm up when you have the heating on long enough, and high bills over winter is to be expected - they should drop dramatically very soon.

 Have to agree with this. £75 / mth on gas in the middle of winter doesn’t sound horrendous.  By the time you’ve allowed for next to no useage in the summer, that’s going to average out to maybe £40-50 / mth over a year.