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Help with railway Apcoa Fine ZZPS now involved

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  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 151,971 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Just Small Update: Still no response regarding the complaint even though they try and respond within 14 working days which has long passed and the 28 days mark has passed as well... unless they also mean 28 working days, if that's the case than that will pass in the upcoming week. 

    I have received a letter from QDR Solicitors, expecting to receive another one.few more soon.
    Please re-post with a fresh pic of that letter, showing the date of the PN and date of that letter. Urgent please. Needed for evidence for the Government.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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    Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • LillacIris
    LillacIris Posts: 21 Forumite
    10 Posts Photogenic
    edited 22 April at 1:32PM
    Please re-post with a fresh pic of that letter, showing the date of the PN and date of that letter. Urgent please. Needed for evidence for the Government.
    Here's a fresh image, what evidence is this for if you don't mind me asking?

  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 151,971 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    edited 26 April at 1:05AM
    I'm on the MHCLG Steering Group helping to inform the Government to shape and finalise the incoming statutory Private Parking Code of Practice to best support motorists.

    I wanted to see if QDR were chasing a PN after the 6 months is up but I see that's not until the first week of June. If you get any letters after this alleged debt is statute barred in June, please do post them here.

    Nothing will happen with this PN. It's weeks from timing out and they know it!


    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
    Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • LillacIris
    LillacIris Posts: 21 Forumite
    10 Posts Photogenic

    I have edited the complaint and tried to take out any accusation, is this a better edit to send? Shall I adjust or comepletly take out point 2? 

    Subject: Formal Complaint Regarding the Legitimacy of Penalty Notice [Reference Number]

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    I am writing to formally challenge the legitimacy and enforcement of the above-referenced Penalty Notice (PN) issued by APCOA. I seek clarification on the legal basis for this penalty, particularly regarding the distinction between statutory and civil enforcement.

    1. Statutory or Civil Enforcement

      APCOA appears to present this PN as a statutory penalty while enforcing it through civil recovery methods. If it is a statutory penalty under the Railway Byelaws, it should be prosecuted in the magistrates’ court. However, the use of private debt collection suggests a different legal basis. Please confirm whether this PN is being pursued as a statutory penalty or as a civil matter and explain the legal grounds for this approach.

    2. Collection and Retention of Payments

      Statutory penalties issued under Byelaw 14 should be remitted to the public purse, yet APCOA directs payments to its own account. Under what legal authority does APCOA collect and retain these payments? Please also provide details of any arrangements between APCOA and the relevant Train Operating Company regarding these funds.

    3. Procedural Compliance

      If this PN is issued under the Railway Byelaws, statutory procedures should be followed, including referral to the magistrates’ court. The absence of such action raises concerns about the legitimacy of the enforcement process. If APCOA considers this a statutory offence, why has the case not been referred to the court? If it is a civil matter, why was a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) not issued in accordance with contract law?

    4. Request for Further Information

      To clarify this matter, I request a detailed response addressing the following:

      • The legal basis under which APCOA collects and retains payments for alleged breaches of railway byelaws.

      • An explanation of why the alleged breach has not been referred to the magistrates’ court if it is considered a statutory offence.

      • Clarification on whether this PN is a statutory penalty or a civil charge and the rationale for its enforcement method.

    I expect a full response within 14 days. If APCOA does not provide satisfactory clarification, I will escalate my concerns to the relevant regulatory bodies, including Trading Standards, the Office of Rail and Road, the Department for Transport and the DVLA.

    I look forward to your response.

    Yours sincerely, [Your Name]

    Update: I have recieved a complaint response.

    Thank you for your patience whilst this has been investigated. 

    Statutory or civil enforcement
    We can confirm that this Penalty Notice is issued as a civil matter. The penalty notice system is an established mechanism designed to address breaches of the railway byelaws in a way that is proportionate and fair. These notices are not intended to suggest criminal intent or prosecution at the outset but to offer the opportunity to resolve matters without escalation. Should the recipient fail to engage or resolve the matter, criminal enforcement under Byelaw 14(1) may be pursued.

    The term “Penalty Notice” is used because the breach of railway byelaws, such as unauthorised parking, constitutes a potential statutory offence. This is entirely different from a private parking charge, as our notices pertain to statutory enforcement of the byelaws, which may involve criminal liability in some cases. The presentation of the notice reflects the legal process in place, and it has been reviewed and approved to ensure compliance with the applicable legal standards.

    Collection and retention of payments
    Penalty Notices issued by APCOA are issued on privately owned railway land on behalf of the landowner. Please note that APCOA are a services group and all revenue taken from paid Penalty Notices is passed on to the landowner.

    Procedural compliance 
    The claim in question is based on contract law. When the vehicle was parked on site, you willingly entered into a parking contract with APCOA. As part of this contract, it was agreed that the charge detailed on the signage would be paid should the vehicle be parked in breach of the Terms & Conditions of parking. The driver of the vehicle does not need to have read the Terms & Conditions of the contract to accept it. There is only the requirement that the driver is afforded the opportunity to read and understand the Terms & Conditions of the contract before accepting it. It is the driver’s responsibility to seek out the Terms & Conditions, and ensure they understand them, before agreeing to the contract and parking their vehicle.

    I would also like to point out that a contractual agreement was entered into with APCOA when the vehicle was parked on site, in which it was agreed that the terms and conditions displayed on the signage would be adhered to. Those terms and conditions included incurring a charge for failing to park within the restrictions applicable to the site. There was no obligation to park on site should the Terms & Conditions of parking not be accepted.

    Kind regards, 
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 151,971 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    edited 26 April at 1:04AM
    LillacIris said:

    I have edited the complaint and tried to take out any accusation, is this a better edit to send? Shall I adjust or comepletly take out point 2? 

    Subject: Formal Complaint Regarding the Legitimacy of Penalty Notice [Reference Number]

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    I am writing to formally challenge the legitimacy and enforcement of the above-referenced Penalty Notice (PN) issued by APCOA. I seek clarification on the legal basis for this penalty, particularly regarding the distinction between statutory and civil enforcement.

    1. Statutory or Civil Enforcement

      APCOA appears to present this PN as a statutory penalty while enforcing it through civil recovery methods. If it is a statutory penalty under the Railway Byelaws, it should be prosecuted in the magistrates’ court. However, the use of private debt collection suggests a different legal basis. Please confirm whether this PN is being pursued as a statutory penalty or as a civil matter and explain the legal grounds for this approach.

    2. Collection and Retention of Payments

      Statutory penalties issued under Byelaw 14 should be remitted to the public purse, yet APCOA directs payments to its own account. Under what legal authority does APCOA collect and retain these payments? Please also provide details of any arrangements between APCOA and the relevant Train Operating Company regarding these funds.

    3. Procedural Compliance

      If this PN is issued under the Railway Byelaws, statutory procedures should be followed, including referral to the magistrates’ court. The absence of such action raises concerns about the legitimacy of the enforcement process. If APCOA considers this a statutory offence, why has the case not been referred to the court? If it is a civil matter, why was a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) not issued in accordance with contract law?

    4. Request for Further Information

      To clarify this matter, I request a detailed response addressing the following:

      • The legal basis under which APCOA collects and retains payments for alleged breaches of railway byelaws.

      • An explanation of why the alleged breach has not been referred to the magistrates’ court if it is considered a statutory offence.

      • Clarification on whether this PN is a statutory penalty or a civil charge and the rationale for its enforcement method.

    I expect a full response within 14 days. If APCOA does not provide satisfactory clarification, I will escalate my concerns to the relevant regulatory bodies, including Trading Standards, the Office of Rail and Road, the Department for Transport and the DVLA.

    I look forward to your response.

    Yours sincerely, [Your Name]

    Update: I have recieved a complaint response.

    Thank you for your patience whilst this has been investigated. 

    Statutory or civil enforcement
    We can confirm that this Penalty Notice is issued as a civil matter. The penalty notice system is an established mechanism designed to address breaches of the railway byelaws in a way that is proportionate and fair. These notices are not intended to suggest criminal intent or prosecution at the outset but to offer the opportunity to resolve matters without escalation. Should the recipient fail to engage or resolve the matter, criminal enforcement under Byelaw 14(1) may be pursued.

    The term “Penalty Notice” is used because the breach of railway byelaws, such as unauthorised parking, constitutes a potential statutory offence. This is entirely different from a private parking charge, as our notices pertain to statutory enforcement of the byelaws, which may involve criminal liability in some cases. The presentation of the notice reflects the legal process in place, and it has been reviewed and approved to ensure compliance with the applicable legal standards.

    Collection and retention of payments
    Penalty Notices issued by APCOA are issued on privately owned railway land on behalf of the landowner. Please note that APCOA are a services group and all revenue taken from paid Penalty Notices is passed on to the landowner.

    Procedural compliance 
    The claim in question is based on contract law. When the vehicle was parked on site, you willingly entered into a parking contract with APCOA. As part of this contract, it was agreed that the charge detailed on the signage would be paid should the vehicle be parked in breach of the Terms & Conditions of parking. The driver of the vehicle does not need to have read the Terms & Conditions of the contract to accept it. There is only the requirement that the driver is afforded the opportunity to read and understand the Terms & Conditions of the contract before accepting it. It is the driver’s responsibility to seek out the Terms & Conditions, and ensure they understand them, before agreeing to the contract and parking their vehicle.

    I would also like to point out that a contractual agreement was entered into with APCOA when the vehicle was parked on site, in which it was agreed that the terms and conditions displayed on the signage would be adhered to. Those terms and conditions included incurring a charge for failing to park within the restrictions applicable to the site. There was no obligation to park on site should the Terms & Conditions of parking not be accepted.

    Kind regards,
     
    It can't be a byelaws penalty (a fine) AND also "issued under contract law" (i.e. terms & conditions agreed by parking).

    The DVLA reminded PPCs not to muddy these waters a few years ago, and the BPA CoP used to have a decent Appendix about Railway Byelaws cases and how PPCs must not switch between the stance of 'byelaws PN' and 'contractual PCN'.

    That Appendix was lost with the Joint Code.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
    Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • 1505grandad
    1505grandad Posts: 3,795 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Would the landowner/contracting entity also be implicated in the alleged fraud?
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