Air India flight nightmare compensation query

DullGreyGuy

NJ69x said:

Hoenir said:

NJ69x said:

Hoenir said:

16th February the flight departed at 13:49.  Consequently may have lost further time before the doors were opened at Mumbai. With such a short time window there's always the possibility of something going awry.  Two hours twenty minutes isn't enough. Given that the gates will close well before departure time. 

The flight left LHR a little late but it landed in Mumbai at 4.11am, 4 minutes ahead of schedule. It was actually 1hr 15 mins transfer time which I agree is far too short. They must have known it was impossible for anyone to make the 5.30am ATQ flight in time. 

The 2 hours and 20 minutes is based on the schedule you posted. The indicative transfer time at Mumbai for international to domestic flghts is 90 minutes.  Only leaves 50 minutes of leeway. Knock off a further 30 minutes for the gate closure. That's mere 20 minutes left spare. No surprise things didn't go to plan. 

Who booked the tickets? 

The flight was found on Skyscanner and booked with the travel agent Flightcatchers (Polani Travel).

This kind of thing should not be allowed to happen, the travel agent is blaming Air India saying they just booked the flights and don't make the schedules. It's a form of false advertising because they know it's impossible to make that connecting flight. There's no way we would have booked a 24 hour total flight and 3 flights to ATQ from LHR. I feel we have been misled. 

What do you think our next move should be regarding this? Do we have any basis for a claim?

I booked the tickets for my dad using his credit card so the payment was made by him.

Why didnt you raise anything when the transfer time was reduced to 1hr 15? 

What are his actual losses? 

It looks like its a continuous ticket but have you confirmed it?

eskbanker said:

It sounds like standard practice to have to go through immigration and collect baggage at the first point of entry rather than transit in the usual manner (as it is in the USA for what it's worth), so a minimum connecting time of two hours presumably reflects this

Is there any country in the world where you dont go through immigration and customs when transferring from an international to domestic flight? 

If there is then everyone gets off the domestic flight at the other end how are they going to know who's who to know who needs to go via immigration and who was already in the country when they got on the flight? Would be chaos and basically everyone would have to go via immigration to prevent people from slipping through. 

India is like the US in that you cannot transit airside on an international to international flight 

NJ69x

DullGreyGuy said:

NJ69x said:

Hoenir said:

NJ69x said:

Hoenir said:

16th February the flight departed at 13:49.  Consequently may have lost further time before the doors were opened at Mumbai. With such a short time window there's always the possibility of something going awry.  Two hours twenty minutes isn't enough. Given that the gates will close well before departure time. 

The flight left LHR a little late but it landed in Mumbai at 4.11am, 4 minutes ahead of schedule. It was actually 1hr 15 mins transfer time which I agree is far too short. They must have known it was impossible for anyone to make the 5.30am ATQ flight in time. 

The 2 hours and 20 minutes is based on the schedule you posted. The indicative transfer time at Mumbai for international to domestic flghts is 90 minutes.  Only leaves 50 minutes of leeway. Knock off a further 30 minutes for the gate closure. That's mere 20 minutes left spare. No surprise things didn't go to plan. 

Who booked the tickets? 

The flight was found on Skyscanner and booked with the travel agent Flightcatchers (Polani Travel).

This kind of thing should not be allowed to happen, the travel agent is blaming Air India saying they just booked the flights and don't make the schedules. It's a form of false advertising because they know it's impossible to make that connecting flight. There's no way we would have booked a 24 hour total flight and 3 flights to ATQ from LHR. I feel we have been misled. 

What do you think our next move should be regarding this? Do we have any basis for a claim?

I booked the tickets for my dad using his credit card so the payment was made by him.

Why didnt you raise anything when the transfer time was reduced to 1hr 15? 

What are his actual losses? 

It looks like its a continuous ticket but have you confirmed it?

eskbanker said:

It sounds like standard practice to have to go through immigration and collect baggage at the first point of entry rather than transit in the usual manner (as it is in the USA for what it's worth), so a minimum connecting time of two hours presumably reflects this

Is there any country in the world where you dont go through immigration and customs when transferring from an international to domestic flight? 

If there is then everyone gets off the domestic flight at the other end how are they going to know who's who to know who needs to go via immigration and who was already in the country when they got on the flight? Would be chaos and basically everyone would have to go via immigration to prevent people from slipping through. 

India is like the US in that you cannot transit airside on an international to international flight 

Regarding raising the issue of the flight time change that was something that wasn't noticed by us prior to departing. I understand your point of view but even then the average traveller would reasonably assume if the flight schedule has been sent by the airline/travel agent that it's a feasible route.

The onus has to be on the travel agent and or Air India to inform the passenger if a flight connection is no longer possible well in advance of travel. Even at check in at LHR when I asked the lady on the desk she was adamant it was all fine and there was plenty of time to get on the next flight.

In terms of losses incurred, it's mainly the inconvenience and stress of the experience and having to spend an extra 7 hours travelling on an already long journey.

Air India got my dad to his destination in the end so there's no financial loss per say.

i understand what you mean regarding passing immigration on entry to India, unfortunately not all countries are as fast efficient and india tends to be very slow. Again if this is the case then why are Air India selling this route?

mdann52

DullGreyGuy said:

NJ69x said:

Hoenir said:

NJ69x said:

Hoenir said:

16th February the flight departed at 13:49.  Consequently may have lost further time before the doors were opened at Mumbai. With such a short time window there's always the possibility of something going awry.  Two hours twenty minutes isn't enough. Given that the gates will close well before departure time. 

The flight left LHR a little late but it landed in Mumbai at 4.11am, 4 minutes ahead of schedule. It was actually 1hr 15 mins transfer time which I agree is far too short. They must have known it was impossible for anyone to make the 5.30am ATQ flight in time. 

The 2 hours and 20 minutes is based on the schedule you posted. The indicative transfer time at Mumbai for international to domestic flghts is 90 minutes.  Only leaves 50 minutes of leeway. Knock off a further 30 minutes for the gate closure. That's mere 20 minutes left spare. No surprise things didn't go to plan. 

Who booked the tickets? 

The flight was found on Skyscanner and booked with the travel agent Flightcatchers (Polani Travel).

This kind of thing should not be allowed to happen, the travel agent is blaming Air India saying they just booked the flights and don't make the schedules. It's a form of false advertising because they know it's impossible to make that connecting flight. There's no way we would have booked a 24 hour total flight and 3 flights to ATQ from LHR. I feel we have been misled. 

What do you think our next move should be regarding this? Do we have any basis for a claim?

I booked the tickets for my dad using his credit card so the payment was made by him.

Why didnt you raise anything when the transfer time was reduced to 1hr 15? 

What are his actual losses? 

It looks like its a continuous ticket but have you confirmed it?

eskbanker said:

It sounds like standard practice to have to go through immigration and collect baggage at the first point of entry rather than transit in the usual manner (as it is in the USA for what it's worth), so a minimum connecting time of two hours presumably reflects this

Is there any country in the world where you dont go through immigration and customs when transferring from an international to domestic flight? 

Technically England at LHR and MAN. You clear immigration when connecting, but you only clear customs at your final destination.

And yes, every domestic flight passenger has to clear customs. It might just mean there's a red phone by the exit doors, but you're still subject to controls by a custom officer 

Hoenir

NJ69x said:

Hoenir said:

NJ69x said:

Hoenir said:

16th February the flight departed at 13:49.  Consequently may have lost further time before the doors were opened at Mumbai. With such a short time window there's always the possibility of something going awry.  Two hours twenty minutes isn't enough. Given that the gates will close well before departure time. 

The flight left LHR a little late but it landed in Mumbai at 4.11am, 4 minutes ahead of schedule. It was actually 1hr 15 mins transfer time which I agree is far too short. They must have known it was impossible for anyone to make the 5.30am ATQ flight in time. 

The 2 hours and 20 minutes is based on the schedule you posted. The indicative transfer time at Mumbai for international to domestic flghts is 90 minutes.  Only leaves 50 minutes of leeway. Knock off a further 30 minutes for the gate closure. That's mere 20 minutes left spare. No surprise things didn't go to plan. 

Who booked the tickets? 

The flight was found on Skyscanner and booked with the travel agent Flightcatchers (Polani Travel).

This kind of thing should not be allowed to happen, the travel agent is blaming Air India saying they just booked the flights and don't make the schedules.

Sounds as if somebody found the route then booked the flights without considering the practicalities. Had the Agent or the Airline been asked to perform the entire task then the issue of the transfer time allowed may well have arisen. 

NJ69x

Hoenir said:

NJ69x said:

Hoenir said:

NJ69x said:

Hoenir said:

16th February the flight departed at 13:49.  Consequently may have lost further time before the doors were opened at Mumbai. With such a short time window there's always the possibility of something going awry.  Two hours twenty minutes isn't enough. Given that the gates will close well before departure time. 

The flight left LHR a little late but it landed in Mumbai at 4.11am, 4 minutes ahead of schedule. It was actually 1hr 15 mins transfer time which I agree is far too short. They must have known it was impossible for anyone to make the 5.30am ATQ flight in time. 

The 2 hours and 20 minutes is based on the schedule you posted. The indicative transfer time at Mumbai for international to domestic flghts is 90 minutes.  Only leaves 50 minutes of leeway. Knock off a further 30 minutes for the gate closure. That's mere 20 minutes left spare. No surprise things didn't go to plan. 

Who booked the tickets? 

The flight was found on Skyscanner and booked with the travel agent Flightcatchers (Polani Travel).

This kind of thing should not be allowed to happen, the travel agent is blaming Air India saying they just booked the flights and don't make the schedules.

Sounds as if somebody found the route then booked the flights without considering the practicalities. Had the Agent or the Airline been asked to perform the entire task then the issue of the transfer time allowed may well have arisen. 

What came first the chicken or the egg? The travel agent sold that route otherwise do you think I magically created the idea to travel via Mumbai? 

The average traveller doesn't sit there 'considering practicalities' when booking a flight. Even if that was the case - the original flight we booked was supposed to land in Mumbai an hour earlier so by your logic that should have been ok.

The airline changed their flight times after we booked which made this connecting flight even more unrealistic.

Anyway we are digressing from the purpose of this thread, I wanted to know is there any claim for compensation for mis-selling a flight route and if so who do I go after and by which process?

eskbanker

It sounds like the agent sold what was a valid itinerary at the time (i.e. there was no 'mis-selling' as such) but that when the airline adjusted the timings so that it was no longer viable, this wasn't communicated to you.  When you said earlier that "At some point over the last few months the airline changed the arrival time of the first flight from 3.10am to 4.15am", who informed you of this?  Wasn't the departure time also changed?

One of the issues with booking flights via agents instead of directly with the airline is that there is the risk that each will point the finger at the other in this situation, but clearly you should have been told of the schedule change and its effect.

It may be possible to sustain a claim against the airline under article 6 of the UK261 flight delay/cancellation regulations which clearly state:

In case of a delay of three hours or more in reaching the final destination, the passengers concerned have the right to compensation laid down in Article 7

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2004/261/article/6

Chances are the airline will reject the claim and assert that the schedule was changed in advance, but this should at least bring to the surface exactly what notice of this was given and to whom - note that in the (different but related) scenario of flights being cancelled, "The burden of proof concerning the questions as to whether and when the passenger has been informed of the cancellation of the flight shall rest with the operating air carrier".

lr1277

I don't know if the following is helpful or not but will throw it into the mix.
I looked on the Air India website for a flight from LHR to ATQ on Sunday 23/02.
I found the following:

1) Leave LHR at 13:30. Stop over in Delhi for 2hrs 40min. Arrive in ATQ at 07:10.
2) Leave LHR at 21:05. Stop over in Delhi for 2hrs 40min. Arrive in ATQ at 14:50.
3) Leave LHR at 21:05. Stop over in Delhi for 3hrs 20 min. Arrive in ATQ at 15:30.

If any of the departure and arrival times match what you booked, Air India thinks the journey is possible.

Funnily enough I went onto the Flightcatchers website and looked at flights to ATQ on 23/02.
The only departure times mentioned for Air India are 08:45 and 23:10.

Caz3121

It looks like the scheduled arrival time changed from December 10th from 03:10 to 04:15. This would have then resulted in the connection being less than the minimum connection and no longer a valid connection. On other carriers I have seen this then flags in the booking and often an alternative flight is shown with option to accept or contact for alternative. Notification would likely have been sent to Flightcatchers to sort out - as they owned the booking at that point.

It highlights the importance of checking booking regularly on the airline website - could have been picked up over two months in advance and also the downside of using a third party as notifications from Air India would have gone to them and not the passenger direct.
I suspect if this had been spotted sooner they could have rebooked the journey from LHR to ATQ via Delhi since a Mumbai connection no longer works time wise.

I will expect Flighcatchers will quote the terms and conditions that state "Passenger(s) must re-confirm their booking(s) with either the travel agency / airline company 72 hours prior to the flight departure time to obtain information about last minute changes, irrespective of the guidelines of the airline company." (which few people will do but it will give them a get-out)

DullGreyGuy

NJ69x said:

The average traveller doesn't sit there 'considering practicalities' when booking a flight. Even if that was the case - the original flight we booked was supposed to land in Mumbai an hour earlier so by your logic that should have been ok.

The airline changed their flight times after we booked which made this connecting flight even more unrealistic.

Anyway we are digressing from the purpose of this thread, I wanted to know is there any claim for compensation for mis-selling a flight route and if so who do I go after and by which process?

I'm not sure your assumption of the average traveller is correct, certainly on travel forums there are large number of questions posted on if X hours is sufficient layover time at Y airport. As someone who fairly frequently travels to places with no direct UK flights the layover time is certainly something I've always looked to avoid either the 12 hour wait at the airport or the 1.5hr mad dash through it.

There is no mis-selling, the fight was valid at the point of sale. It became invalid later but you cannot blame the salesman for that.

You could try under UK261 but it requires the flight to be delayed or cancelled, rescheduling isnt part of the process. How to make such a claim is outlined https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/flight-delay-compensation/ 

For missed connecting flights when on a single ticket the airline is obliged to make arrangements to get you to your final destination but Air India already did this. Under these older regs there is no requirement for compensation, just that they look after you.

eskbanker said:

It sounds like the agent sold what was a valid itinerary at the time (i.e. there was no 'mis-selling' as such) but that when the airline adjusted the timings so that it was no longer viable, this wasn't communicated to you.  When you said earlier that "At some point over the last few months the airline changed the arrival time of the first flight from 3.10am to 4.15am", who informed you of this?  Wasn't the departure time also changed?

One of the issues with booking flights via agents instead of directly with the airline is that there is the risk that each will point the finger at the other in this situation, but clearly you should have been told of the schedule change and its effect.

It may be possible to sustain a claim against the airline under article 6 of the UK261 flight delay/cancellation regulations which clearly state:

In case of a delay of three hours or more in reaching the final destination, the passengers concerned have the right to compensation laid down in Article 7

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2004/261/article/6

Chances are the airline will reject the claim and assert that the schedule was changed in advance, but this should at least bring to the surface exactly what notice of this was given and to whom - note that in the (different but related) scenario of flights being cancelled, "The burden of proof concerning the questions as to whether and when the passenger has been informed of the cancellation of the flight shall rest with the operating air carrier".

Was it delayed though? The flights more or less left and arrived at their (re)scheduled times? The Article 6 explicitly talks about the flight leaving later than scheduled and you arriving late due to a delay. 

Having been delayed by a rescheduling in the past I find all articles (here, CAA, Which?, CAB etc) are very much lacking in any info on if this triggers 261 or not

eskbanker

DullGreyGuy said:

Was it delayed though? The flights more or less left and arrived at their (re)scheduled times? The Article 6 explicitly talks about the flight leaving later than scheduled and you arriving late due to a delay. 

Having been delayed by a rescheduling in the past I find all articles (here, CAA, Which?, CAB etc) are very much lacking in any info on if this triggers 261 or not

No, it wasn't delayed if it was rescheduled in advance - I was effectively suggesting that OP plays dumb and asserts that arrival was delayed by reference to the only itinerary they'd been provided with.  It does seem inevitable that the airline would challenge that and claim that the booking was changed, but in a similar (but not identical) situation, there is actually a burden of proof on the airline to show that the passenger was informed of this.

My understanding is that advance rescheduling isn't within scope of UK261 as such (there is no reference to it in the regulations), and hence airlines having wide policy variations over what's deemed to be a significant change triggering refund rights, but there was some debate about this on another recent thread where a poster felt confident that a court would come down on the side of the passenger, if a compelling argument was made that an advance reschedule had the same effect as a UK261 event:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6585953/departure-time-6-hours-later-eu-261-2004