SCS refusing to cancel order but didn't say at point of sale.

A_Geordie

elsien said:

Except the terms of any instore purchase are that there are no automatic cancellation rights, under the current legislation? 

You appear to be assuming that the OP's rights are based on the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations, which are statutory consumer rights in addition to any written or verbal terms agreed between the two parties under common law contract principles. I am arguing that the OP may not have a statutory right to cancel under the CCRs but they have a right to cancel under common law, on the basis that there were no terms at the point of sale prohibiting the OP from cancelling an order and in the absence of any prohibition, it was open to the OP to cancel.

sonearandyetsofa said:

The OP still only has the right to amend (not cancel) the order within the first five days. Without being told anything else, when you purchase from a physical store where you had the opportunity to examine the goods, you don't have the automatic right to change your mind and cancel the order. Basically the assumption is that you cannot cancel, and the store would need to tell you that you can cancel an order in order to grant you that right. If they'd said nothing at all, OP wouldn't even have the right to amend it - it's only because they were told they could amend it that they have the ability to do so.

Your argument seems to be based on the same argument by elsien, which is reliance on the CCRs, not common law principles. Refer to the point above. 

In my opinion, amendment and cancellation are not mutually exclusive. To me, an amendment of an order is to vary the existing order such that you may be purchasing more or less than what you originally agreed but not reducing the order to nothing, which would in effect be a cancellation. Cancellation would mean to void the agreement and revert to the positions prior to the contract being entered into. Just because the OP may be prohibited from amending an order after 5 days, would not prevent them from cancelling since there was no term or condition prohibiting such right at the time of the order - it was strictly limited to amendments only.

sonearandyetsofa said:

There's no requirement in law for the seller to inform the buyer of terms when purchasing in a physical shop, unless those terms differ from the usual.

I'm afraid I disagree, but you're almost right. Contracts can be formed with a comprehensive set of terms or no terms at all except for the price to be paid, so long as the elements for the formation of a contract can be made out: offer, acceptance, consideration and intention to create legal relations. Beyond that, the parties are free to agree to whatever they like, as long as it is not unlawful or illegal. 

However, when parties agree a contract with next to no terms and conditions because the seller failed to provide them at the time of entering into the contract, the seller cannot at a later date then introduce terms and expect them to become enforceable. Case example: Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking 1971. Driver went up to a car park with a ticketed barrier but there were no terms and conditions at the entrance other than a basic notice. The printed ticket contained terms on the back and the Court of Appeal held that the car parking company could not rely on the terms because they weren't brought to the drivers attention at the time of entering into the contract and should have been displayed at the entrance.

Kim_13

Conniebygaslight said:

The reason I want to cancel is irrelevant. The fact remains that the sales person ticked a load of boxes on my behalf and then only presented me with a signature box on a blank screen. That surely isn't acceptable?

They would presumably argue that you were given the documents - can you prove that you weren’t? You should not have signed without getting them to furnish the documents and checking that anything important to you (the 5 day period) was included - and giving you sight of what they had ticked on your behalf. By signing you confirmed that the ticked boxes applied.

Your signature on a screen is as valid as if you had signed it with a biro on paper. 

If this were to proceed to court then an email with the T&C timestamped later than your signature might help you - but the court would need to be convinced you hadn’t received them in another format beforehand. If SCS are known for this then presumably Trustpilot etc would have people saying the same as you - induced by a 5 day window, no other terms given until afterwards.

sheramber

Are the Terms and Conditions received  a copy of what she signed in the shop meaning they have her signature on them.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Okell said:

Regarding the other question as to whether the broad term "to amend" includes the narrower term "to cancel", I think I'd say no, it doesn't

The dictionary definition seems to be "make minor changes to" and cancelling wouldn't be minor but then what is minor with regards to a sofa? Change the colour of the feet maybe, change the colour of the upholstery? Seems a bit more than minor to me.

Would also be interesting to know exactly in what way SCS allow the customer to amend their order. 

Okell

@A_Geordie -  can you clarify what you are saying please?

1.  Are you saying that for any consumer purchase - whether instore or at a distance - the consumer has an implied common law right to cancel before delivery, unless the consumer is explicitly made aware before entering into the contract that they have no right to cancel?

2.  Therefore, if the consumer wasn't told before "signing" that there was no right to cancel, the subsequent email from SCS telling him that he had no right to cancel has no effect, and he can still exercise his common law right to cancel?

I think I'm having difficulty getting my head round the idea that unless a consumer is expressly told that no right to cancellation exists, then they have an implied common law right to cancel any contract.

I think part of the problem is separating two different situations: one where you go into a store, hand over some cash, and walk out with your purchase; and the second where you go into a store and order something for future delivery.

In the first, once you walk out with your purchase that's it, but in the second I can see that there may be a legitimate question as to why shouldn't you have the right to cancel before the order is fulfilled.

(I'm not sure the car parking T&Cs is a helpful analogy.)

sonearandyetsofa

When in the past I've discussed this very thing with our company solicitors I have been told that, absent of the customer being told otherwise, there is no automatic right to a change of mind cancellation on a purchase. It's not necessary to inform a customer that they don't have a right to something that they would not ordinarily have a right to. 

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/changed-your-mind/changing-your-mind-about-something-youve-bought/

OP doesn't appear to have any complaints regarding the nature of what they were purchasing, it appears they know what the product was, how much they were paying for it, and what the payment terms were. It's unfortunate but I do not think they would be able to reasonably argue in court that someone saying "you can amend the order within 5 days" would amount to the same as saying "you can cancel the order within 5 days".

I have however seen people have some success with reducing the value of the order. Wasn't there someone on this site who managed to get something effectively cancelled by amending their order from a sofa down to a single cushion? If they refuse to accept a cancellation it's certainly worth trying to amend the order down to a smaller value.

Okell

sonearandyetsofa said:

When in the past I've discussed this very thing with our company solicitors I have been told that, absent of the customer being told otherwise, there is no automatic right to a change of mind cancellation on a purchase. It's not necessary to inform a customer that they don't have a right to something that they would not ordinarily have a right to. 

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/changed-your-mind/changing-your-mind-about-something-youve-bought/

OP doesn't appear to have any complaints regarding the nature of what they were purchasing, it appears they know what the product was, how much they were paying for it, and what the payment terms were. It's unfortunate but I do not think they would be able to reasonably argue in court that someone saying "you can amend the order within 5 days" would amount to the same as saying "you can cancel the order within 5 days".

I have however seen people have some success with reducing the value of the order. Wasn't there someone on this site who managed to get something effectively cancelled by amending their order from a sofa down to a single cushion? If they refuse to accept a cancellation it's certainly worth trying to amend the order down to a smaller value.

So far as that link is concerned, doesn't the "If you bought the item in a shop" heading only apply to contracts where you have already taken delivery of the goods?  ie if you bought the goods in a shop and physically walked off with them, you have no statutory (or common law?) rights to a change of mind refund or exchange.

I think @A_Geordie is suggesting that if you go into a shop and order something for future delivery, then you have an implied common law right to cancel it, unless you are informed to the contrary* before entering into the contract.

That's what I've asked them to clarify


* And even then I suppose it could be an Unfair term...

pinkshoes

Conniebygaslight said:

The way the sales guy did it was extremely clever, her read out things like, we have good access for delivery, we agree for them to contact us by emails and phone, all the rather benign points. He didn't mention terms and conditions and said that we had 5 days to make any amendments to the order.

So what specifically is there in the terms and conditions that you feel is detrimental to the purchase that you would not have made the purchase had you not known this?

(And as it was an in store purchase, you have no right to cancel in store purchases, so cannot use this as a reason).

e.g. if the T&Cs say that they will not carry the sofas up more than one staircase and your living room is on a third floor and this was not mentioned at the point of sale, then that's a reasonable reason to cancel. 

Your reason for wanting to cancel IS relevant e.g. if you have realised the sofa won't fit, then you have 5 days to speak to them about changing the order to one that will fit. 

Okell

pinkshoes said:

Conniebygaslight said:

The way the sales guy did it was extremely clever, her read out things like, we have good access for delivery, we agree for them to contact us by emails and phone, all the rather benign points. He didn't mention terms and conditions and said that we had 5 days to make any amendments to the order.

... (And as it was an in store purchase, you have no right to cancel in store purchases, so cannot use this as a reason)...

It would appear that might not necessarily be a given...  (See posts previous to yours)

Niv

Much of this thread seems to relate to rights (or not) of cancelling an order from an instore purchase. In addition to this I thought that if an item was customised / made to order than you also had no right to a change of mind cancellation - is that not also the case? Just clarifying for the OP, me and anyone else that was wondering that element.

I do think that for such large purchases the company involved 'should' provide / make clear the T&Cs at purchase, although I understand in this case that they post most details online with a line to 'ask in store if you have any queries' type disclaimer.