UC is impossible

Newcad

This sounds like a situation where UC being in payment depends on the claimant having LCWRA - but they can't get to LCWRA before the UC gets closed for nil entitlement, so it just goes round in circles. (It appears it can happen with students and sometimes with self-employment?)

If that is the case here then IIRC there was some guidance on that situation, and how to get around it, given on Rightsnet. (It was something simple like a note on the journal that then raised a flag that stopped the claim being closed until a WCA was carried out.

If someone could find that Rightsnet post it may help - I'll look myself later but am limited just at the moment.

Muttleythefrog

Newcad said:

This sounds like a situation where UC being in payment depends on the claimant having LCWRA - but they can't get to LCWRA before the UC gets closed for nil entitlement, so it just goes round in circles. (It appears it can happen with students and sometimes with self-employment?)

If that is the case here then IIRC there was some guidance on that situation, and how to get around it, given on Rightsnet. (It was something simple like a note on the journal that then raised a flag that stopped the claim being closed until a WCA was carried out.

If someone could find that Rightsnet post it may help - I'll look myself later but am limited just at the moment.

Found it I think..... rufuschucklebutty ... stick this (the bolded italic bit below) in your UC journal (if applicable - which it quite possible is but we cannot say for sure as we cannot see any information we need) after submitting your 'sick note' (which you may already have done). Indication is it has worked in relevant cases. 

From https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/but/member/register/viewthread/18763/

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This claim is submitted with reference to Regulation 28(7) of the UC Regs 2013. I have submitted a Med 3 certificate/Fit Note and I request a Work Capability Assessment as I will be entitled to Universal Credit if I am found to have a LCWRA. Regulation 28(7) of the UC Regs 2013 allows you to keep my claim open until I have a WCA even if I am not entitled to any UC at the moment. Please do not close my claim. See also F5070 for the reference in the DWP guide to the LCWRA element (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1085953/admf5.pdf#page=9)

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Newcad

Thanks @Muttleythefrog , I've been searching Rightsnet this morning but for some reason my search wasn't pulling up that exact thread/post.

I had found that it was Reg 28(7) and F5070 of the ADM that applied. so had written my own version of a template.

I'll still give my version here just as an alternative wording.

Of course the claimant does still have to comply with any Claimant Commitments given, but as they are awaiting a WCA then any CC's should be minimal.
Typically the CC's would just be to keep Supplying Fit Notes, and to keep a regular eye on their journal.
Whilst waiting for a first WCA you are 'treated as having' LCW , so there may aslo be the odd Work Focused interview to attend, (not attending such a WFI without having Good Reason could still technically result in a sanction, but as you would be on the minimum UC 1p award anyway there would be nothing to be sanctioned).

If/when you make a claim for UC in such circumstances then after making the application you need to add the folowing request to your journal, when adding it in 'What's your message about' put it under 'Payment'.
(Putting it there should make sure that it gets to a Case Managed/Decision Maker rather than just your Work Coach).

Template:

Please note that I am aware that without a LCWRA entitlement/element my UC award would be 'nil'.
However I cannot be entitled to a LCWRA element without first having had a Work Capability Assessment.
For that reason I request that my application is treated as made under Regulation 28(7) of The UC Regulations 2013, and the 'prescribed minimum' entitlement/payment of £0.01 applied to keep the claim open until a WCA can be carried out and a decision made.
Please also see the Advice for Decision Makers, Chapter F5, Paragraph F5070.

rufuschucklebutty

Muttleythefrog said:

rufuschucklebutty said:

I have filled out the WCA form multiple times but never got any decesion because my claim has been closed down before the result is received. 

I am signed off for mental health reasons and they have made it so frustrating and impossible I can no longer deal with it, they just find a reason to close the claim and that wipes out everything even my proof of ID has to be done again. 

I see. Then you really need to tackle the precise reasons the claim is being closed down... as I feared you're in some vicious cycle of never getting to a point where you're benefitting from being assessed as having LCWRA (or LCW) meaning you're taking part in (or rather struggling to take part in) activity potentially avoidable. 

You have to tackle the closing down of the claim reasons - they tend not to do it without a solid reason but we cannot see what they have been. If this is because you are not complying with what they require such as taking calls... you need to resolve that yourself, or if you cannot resolve with UC alternatives, then contact MP who can take on cases like this to resolve because there are broader problems like for example UC are setting you up to fail as you haven't got the technology to manage your claim or there is incompetence or failings at localised delivery of UC. 

Ultimately if you are found to have LCWRA your responsibilities will be easy to deal with - basically just inform them of any changes and deal with any specific requests they have like updating your savings level. No more fitness notes required from GP and you could get more money.

If you feel all of this is too much.... please try to speak to CAB or similar who can pick up the reigns and help advise you with facts in front of them we cannot see unless stated here. It's not acceptable that someone with mental health problems is being caught in some vicious cycle of claim never able to actually get to assessment phase due to demands of the system but I am sure there will be fixes here (including telephony related if necessary). Good luck!

Do " reasonable adjustments " apply to benefits ? 

If a person is on a sick note for mental health reasons I would think it is fair that the system takes I to account the person might not get everything done all the time ? 

Spoonie_Turtle

rufuschucklebutty said:

Muttleythefrog said:

rufuschucklebutty said:

I have filled out the WCA form multiple times but never got any decesion because my claim has been closed down before the result is received. 

I am signed off for mental health reasons and they have made it so frustrating and impossible I can no longer deal with it, they just find a reason to close the claim and that wipes out everything even my proof of ID has to be done again. 

I see. Then you really need to tackle the precise reasons the claim is being closed down... as I feared you're in some vicious cycle of never getting to a point where you're benefitting from being assessed as having LCWRA (or LCW) meaning you're taking part in (or rather struggling to take part in) activity potentially avoidable. 

You have to tackle the closing down of the claim reasons - they tend not to do it without a solid reason but we cannot see what they have been. If this is because you are not complying with what they require such as taking calls... you need to resolve that yourself, or if you cannot resolve with UC alternatives, then contact MP who can take on cases like this to resolve because there are broader problems like for example UC are setting you up to fail as you haven't got the technology to manage your claim or there is incompetence or failings at localised delivery of UC. 

Ultimately if you are found to have LCWRA your responsibilities will be easy to deal with - basically just inform them of any changes and deal with any specific requests they have like updating your savings level. No more fitness notes required from GP and you could get more money.

If you feel all of this is too much.... please try to speak to CAB or similar who can pick up the reigns and help advise you with facts in front of them we cannot see unless stated here. It's not acceptable that someone with mental health problems is being caught in some vicious cycle of claim never able to actually get to assessment phase due to demands of the system but I am sure there will be fixes here (including telephony related if necessary). Good luck!

Do " reasonable adjustments " apply to benefits ? 

If a person is on a sick note for mental health reasons I would think it is fair that the system takes I to account the person might not get everything done all the time ? 

Should do, but anecdotally people have to fight for them.  Which is bitterly ironic, the people least capable of navigating the system having the extra burden of having to fight for their legal entitlement to reasonable accommodations on top of facing the original barriers.

Muttleythefrog

rufuschucklebutty said:

Muttleythefrog said:

rufuschucklebutty said:

I have filled out the WCA form multiple times but never got any decesion because my claim has been closed down before the result is received. 

I am signed off for mental health reasons and they have made it so frustrating and impossible I can no longer deal with it, they just find a reason to close the claim and that wipes out everything even my proof of ID has to be done again. 

I see. Then you really need to tackle the precise reasons the claim is being closed down... as I feared you're in some vicious cycle of never getting to a point where you're benefitting from being assessed as having LCWRA (or LCW) meaning you're taking part in (or rather struggling to take part in) activity potentially avoidable. 

You have to tackle the closing down of the claim reasons - they tend not to do it without a solid reason but we cannot see what they have been. If this is because you are not complying with what they require such as taking calls... you need to resolve that yourself, or if you cannot resolve with UC alternatives, then contact MP who can take on cases like this to resolve because there are broader problems like for example UC are setting you up to fail as you haven't got the technology to manage your claim or there is incompetence or failings at localised delivery of UC. 

Ultimately if you are found to have LCWRA your responsibilities will be easy to deal with - basically just inform them of any changes and deal with any specific requests they have like updating your savings level. No more fitness notes required from GP and you could get more money.

If you feel all of this is too much.... please try to speak to CAB or similar who can pick up the reigns and help advise you with facts in front of them we cannot see unless stated here. It's not acceptable that someone with mental health problems is being caught in some vicious cycle of claim never able to actually get to assessment phase due to demands of the system but I am sure there will be fixes here (including telephony related if necessary). Good luck!

Do " reasonable adjustments " apply to benefits ? 

If a person is on a sick note for mental health reasons I would think it is fair that the system takes I to account the person might not get everything done all the time ? 

Can do.... and it may be an issue to revisit especially if looking back at what has gone wrong. But please note we think we may have found a solution to your issue of the claim keep closing down before assessment. Please look carefully at Newcad's posts above and mine in between regarding putting a note in your journal... we have supplied the necessary text and as Newcad says... select that it's a journal note regarding payment when prompted. It's critical we stop your UC claims from closing before WCA is conducted.

rufuschucklebutty

Muttleythefrog said:

rufuschucklebutty said:

Muttleythefrog said:

rufuschucklebutty said:

I have filled out the WCA form multiple times but never got any decesion because my claim has been closed down before the result is received. 

I am signed off for mental health reasons and they have made it so frustrating and impossible I can no longer deal with it, they just find a reason to close the claim and that wipes out everything even my proof of ID has to be done again. 

I see. Then you really need to tackle the precise reasons the claim is being closed down... as I feared you're in some vicious cycle of never getting to a point where you're benefitting from being assessed as having LCWRA (or LCW) meaning you're taking part in (or rather struggling to take part in) activity potentially avoidable. 

You have to tackle the closing down of the claim reasons - they tend not to do it without a solid reason but we cannot see what they have been. If this is because you are not complying with what they require such as taking calls... you need to resolve that yourself, or if you cannot resolve with UC alternatives, then contact MP who can take on cases like this to resolve because there are broader problems like for example UC are setting you up to fail as you haven't got the technology to manage your claim or there is incompetence or failings at localised delivery of UC. 

Ultimately if you are found to have LCWRA your responsibilities will be easy to deal with - basically just inform them of any changes and deal with any specific requests they have like updating your savings level. No more fitness notes required from GP and you could get more money.

If you feel all of this is too much.... please try to speak to CAB or similar who can pick up the reigns and help advise you with facts in front of them we cannot see unless stated here. It's not acceptable that someone with mental health problems is being caught in some vicious cycle of claim never able to actually get to assessment phase due to demands of the system but I am sure there will be fixes here (including telephony related if necessary). Good luck!

Do " reasonable adjustments " apply to benefits ? 

If a person is on a sick note for mental health reasons I would think it is fair that the system takes I to account the person might not get everything done all the time ? 

Can do.... and it may be an issue to revisit especially if looking back at what has gone wrong. But please note we think we may have found a solution to your issue of the claim keep closing down before assessment. Please look carefully at Newcad's posts above and mine in between regarding putting a note in your journal... we have supplied the necessary text and as Newcad says... select that it's a journal note regarding payment when prompted. It's critical we stop your UC claims from closing before WCA is conducted.

Many Thanks for doing this for me, I have called them and requested a "mandatory reconsideration" but my account is now closed so I no longer have a journal. 

I want to start a complaint about this, based on them affecting my mental health negatively.  

HillStreetBlues

rufuschucklebutty said:

I want to start a complaint about this, based on them affecting my mental health negatively. 

You can make a complaint on-line
https://makeacomplaint.dwp.gov.uk/

Newcad

Many Thanks for doing this for me, I have called them and requested a "mandatory reconsideration" but my account is now closed so I no longer have a journal.

We had realised that your UC account would probably be closed (again) - because that's how this particular situation goes, claims being opened and closed in a repeating cycle, until you use that note wording to prevent it happening again and so break the cycle.

The advice about the wording to use was/is for when you next make another UC claim, it is then that you would put that note on your journal to tell them not to close the claim this time. (because you are waiting for a WCA).

Muttleythefrog

rufuschucklebutty said:

Muttleythefrog said:

rufuschucklebutty said:

Muttleythefrog said:

rufuschucklebutty said:

I have filled out the WCA form multiple times but never got any decesion because my claim has been closed down before the result is received. 

I am signed off for mental health reasons and they have made it so frustrating and impossible I can no longer deal with it, they just find a reason to close the claim and that wipes out everything even my proof of ID has to be done again. 

I see. Then you really need to tackle the precise reasons the claim is being closed down... as I feared you're in some vicious cycle of never getting to a point where you're benefitting from being assessed as having LCWRA (or LCW) meaning you're taking part in (or rather struggling to take part in) activity potentially avoidable. 

You have to tackle the closing down of the claim reasons - they tend not to do it without a solid reason but we cannot see what they have been. If this is because you are not complying with what they require such as taking calls... you need to resolve that yourself, or if you cannot resolve with UC alternatives, then contact MP who can take on cases like this to resolve because there are broader problems like for example UC are setting you up to fail as you haven't got the technology to manage your claim or there is incompetence or failings at localised delivery of UC. 

Ultimately if you are found to have LCWRA your responsibilities will be easy to deal with - basically just inform them of any changes and deal with any specific requests they have like updating your savings level. No more fitness notes required from GP and you could get more money.

If you feel all of this is too much.... please try to speak to CAB or similar who can pick up the reigns and help advise you with facts in front of them we cannot see unless stated here. It's not acceptable that someone with mental health problems is being caught in some vicious cycle of claim never able to actually get to assessment phase due to demands of the system but I am sure there will be fixes here (including telephony related if necessary). Good luck!

Do " reasonable adjustments " apply to benefits ? 

If a person is on a sick note for mental health reasons I would think it is fair that the system takes I to account the person might not get everything done all the time ? 

Can do.... and it may be an issue to revisit especially if looking back at what has gone wrong. But please note we think we may have found a solution to your issue of the claim keep closing down before assessment. Please look carefully at Newcad's posts above and mine in between regarding putting a note in your journal... we have supplied the necessary text and as Newcad says... select that it's a journal note regarding payment when prompted. It's critical we stop your UC claims from closing before WCA is conducted.

Many Thanks for doing this for me, I have called them and requested a "mandatory reconsideration" but my account is now closed so I no longer have a journal. 

I want to start a complaint about this, based on them affecting my mental health negatively.  

Make sure to get your strategy right here... priorities right. Following from Newcad's post I would suggest, assuming you can get a 'sick note', getting a new UC application on the go and put the suggested message in journal after supply of the 'sick note'. Get the money coming in.. the WCA in the pipeline.. and then you can look at redress, complaints, reconsiderations etc as to what has happened before while you wait for that WCA.