Company asking me to pay more than agreed

sheramber

Notflippinlikely said:

Okell said:

Notflippinlikely said:

Okell said:

I think the correct posiition is that the OP still owes £358.80 and not £450.  The trader's maths is at fault again.  [Edit:  But see edit at foot of this comment]

This all seems to have happened because the trader miscalculated what 10% of the total price was in the first place.

The total price was £4038.  For some reason the trader seems to have done some back-calculation to arrive at the first 10% payment.  (I'm not quite sure how they've done it but...)

Instead of correctly calculating 10% as £403.80 the trader seems to have wrongly deducted the first payment of £358.80 from the total of £4038, and has then proceeded to calculate 10% based on the reduced total after the first payment has been taken off

So each time the OP thought they had been making a payment of 10% (or multiples thereof) they had actually only been paying 8.9% of the correct total £4038

The trader has caused this by subtracting the first payment from the correct total before wrongly calculating the 10% (or 40%) on the remaining balance.  This was wrong.  They should have calculated the 10% (or 40%) amounts before deducting the first payment from the correct total.

The OP really should have noticed this straightaway - as should the trader.  It's obvious that £358.80 is not 10% of £4038.  (It's only become obvious here once the OP gave actual figures we could see).

I think the trader is wrong that the OP owes £450 still.  The OP owed £4038 and has paid £3679.20, therefore they owe £358.80.

The trader has - I think - confused matters again by subtracting £3588 from £4038 = £450.  The trader has erroneously arrived at £3588 because they think the OP has only paid 10 instalments each of £358.8.  But - according to the figures given us by the OP - he has paid more than that

He's made a total of 6 instalment payments of £358.8 and a larger payment of £1526.40.  That larger payment should have been £358.80 x 4 = £1435.20, but it was obviously calculated wrongly - again - and the OP paid £91.20 more on that larger payment than he should have done.

So whether the OP owes another £358.80 or another £450 depends on how much he actually paid when he paid the larger supposed 40% payment at the outset.  The trader obviously thinks he only paid £1435.20, the OP thinks he paid £91.20 more than that.

Neither the trader nor the OP seem mathmatically inclined... 

[Edit:  I think the trader is wrong about the OP owing £450 becuase I'm looking at what the OP has said he's paid.  But on reflection I'm not sure how reliable the OP is in knowing how much he's paid...]

The OP does indeed know that exact amounts that SHE paid!

Well in that case SHE must know exactly what has gone wrong here.

Although her comment seems to be contradicted somewhat by her post made at 8:24pm today correcting erroneous information she had previously posted.

And if she knew the exact amounts paid she should have realised straightaway that £1526.40 was not 4 x £358.80

I am a very busy business owner and do not have the time to add up amounts of money that a reputable UK company has asked me to pay.
It would have all been scrutinised by my accountant at the end of the financial year.

I trusted a company to know how much they were charging me and I dutifully paid the amounts that were clearly stated on the VAT invoices.

I rather wish I had not even asked my question on this forum as I feel berated.

I was looking for friendly advice and I do not feel that I have gained anything from this experience.

Next time I won't bother!

By friendly advice do you mean people to agree with you?

Ergates

Some people really don't like being told they're in the wrong.

Caz3121

Notflippinlikely said:

They have agreed that I have paid;-

10% 358.80
40% 1526.40
10% 358.80
10% 358.80
10% 358.80
10% 358.80
10% 358.80

It seems as though they have divided the payments into the wrong amounts but I signed a contract to that affect. 
Therefore, am I still liable for their mistake?

The error is related to the additional item
the additional item was £375 adding VAT makes that £450. Deduct £450 from the £4,038 total and you have £3,588
you paid 10% of this figure initially
the additional 40% should have been £1,435.20 but you paid £1,526.40 which is an extra £91.20

I expect they have realised you were not charged for the additional item+VAT in the total and think that there is still the £450 to pay but have not deducted the extra £91.20 paid so actual remainder to pay is £358.80

MeteredOut

p00hsticks said:

Notflippinlikely said:

I can prove that it was their inability to do basic maths that has left me in this position.

Can you expand on this please ?
Did the five monthly payments you made indeed amount to the full 50% that you owed ?

This was the first response to this OP. Whilst I believe the OP did not realise the schedule of payments did not cover what was owed at the time said schedule was created, and throughout the payment term, it is clear, through that very deliberate choice of words, that they had become aware of that fact before posting this thread.

As already stated, being up front when posting could have had this clearly resolved within the first couple of responses. 

OP, whilst you do legally owe the amount, you could ask the supplier for a discount as a gesture of goodwill, citing that this additional payment has come as a surprise due to their mistake in the payment schedule.

Grumpy_chap

MeteredOut said:

OP, whilst you do legally owe the amount, you could ask the supplier for a discount as a gesture of goodwill, citing that this additional payment has come as a surprise due to their mistake in the payment schedule.

Except, the OP already seems to have received a discount of some 20% or so from the list price:

Notflippinlikely said:

ACTUAL FIGURES AS PER VAT INVOICES

Machine £4,093.99
Additional item £375.00
Subtotal £4,468.99
Discount £1,103.99
VAT total £4038.00
Payment received £358.80
Balance due £3,679.20

It is really clear that the OP agreed to pay £4,038 for the item and there were stage payments 50% plus five 10% that should total 100%.  There was an error in calculating the values of the stage payments so, for some reason, each £403.80 was processed as £358.80 leaving a shortfall at the end.  This would seem to come under E&OE and not an agreement to change the total price to be paid.

It seems as though the OP now realises this - hence the "missing" payment has been "located".  It would seem to me as though the right thing to do is for the OP to make the outstanding payment.

The OP seems to prefer an interpretation that the reduced stage payments take precedence over the total order value.

In considering the value of making the final payment - thus paying for the good in full - or disputing that final payment, the OP needs to consider the value attached to good service from the supplier going forwards.  I suspect a £4k machine may have some consumables, or maintenance required for which the OP may need to use the services of the original supplier.
The OP might also wish to consider the value of the time that would be expended should the supplier decide to pursue recovery of the outstanding balance.  From what has been presented in the thread, I do not believe that a court would determine this in the OP's favour.

Okell

Grumpy_chap said:

MeteredOut said:

OP, whilst you do legally owe the amount, you could ask the supplier for a discount as a gesture of goodwill, citing that this additional payment has come as a surprise due to their mistake in the payment schedule.

Notflippinlikely said:

ACTUAL FIGURES AS PER VAT INVOICES

Machine £4,093.99
Additional item £375.00
Subtotal £4,468.99
Discount £1,103.99
VAT total £4038.00
Payment received £358.80
Balance due £3,679.20

... It is really clear that the OP agreed to pay £4,038 for the item and there were stage payments 50% plus five 10% that should total 100%.  There was an error in calculating the values of the stage payments so, for some reason, each £403.80 was processed as £358.80 leaving a shortfall at the end.  This would seem to come under E&OE and not an agreement to change the total price to be paid...

The instalments appear to have been calculated before the "Additional item"  at £375 was incorporated into the total.  

The first four items on what the OP says was a VAT invoice are net prices excluding VAT.  So the full cost of the additional item plus VAT was £450.  The "VAT total £4038" on line 5 is the correct VAT inclusive total.

Subtract £450 from the agreed total of £4038 and you get the £3588 on which the instalments were wrongly calculated at 10%.

I think if the OP is looking for friendly advice she ought to ask her accountant if they think it's a particularly sensible thing to do to pay all invoices without even a cursory check.  Especially ones with calculated instalments.  If you get overcharged and the supplier goes bust it will be a bit late to expect your accountant to check at year end that 10% has been correctly calculated...

born_again

Okell said:

Grumpy_chap said:

MeteredOut said:

OP, whilst you do legally owe the amount, you could ask the supplier for a discount as a gesture of goodwill, citing that this additional payment has come as a surprise due to their mistake in the payment schedule.

Notflippinlikely said:

ACTUAL FIGURES AS PER VAT INVOICES

Machine £4,093.99
Additional item £375.00
Subtotal £4,468.99
Discount £1,103.99
VAT total £4038.00
Payment received £358.80
Balance due £3,679.20

... It is really clear that the OP agreed to pay £4,038 for the item and there were stage payments 50% plus five 10% that should total 100%.  There was an error in calculating the values of the stage payments so, for some reason, each £403.80 was processed as £358.80 leaving a shortfall at the end.  This would seem to come under E&OE and not an agreement to change the total price to be paid...

The instalments appear to have been calculated before the "Additional item"  at £375 was incorporated into the total.  

The first four items on what the OP says was a VAT invoice are net prices excluding VAT.  So the full cost of the additional item plus VAT was £450.  The "VAT total £4038" on line 5 is the correct VAT inclusive total.

Subtract £450 from the agreed total of £4038 and you get the £3588 on which the instalments were wrongly calculated at 10%.

I think if the OP is looking for friendly advice she ought to ask her accountant if they think it's a particularly sensible thing to do to pay all invoices without even a cursory check.  Especially ones with calculated instalments.  If you get overcharged and the supplier goes bust it will be a bit late to expect your accountant to check at year end that 10% has been correctly calculated...

To which we have no idea if this was something added on after order was made?

Okell

born_again said:

Okell said:

Grumpy_chap said:

MeteredOut said:

OP, whilst you do legally owe the amount, you could ask the supplier for a discount as a gesture of goodwill, citing that this additional payment has come as a surprise due to their mistake in the payment schedule.

Notflippinlikely said:

ACTUAL FIGURES AS PER VAT INVOICES

Machine £4,093.99
Additional item £375.00
Subtotal £4,468.99
Discount £1,103.99
VAT total £4038.00
Payment received £358.80
Balance due £3,679.20

... It is really clear that the OP agreed to pay £4,038 for the item and there were stage payments 50% plus five 10% that should total 100%.  There was an error in calculating the values of the stage payments so, for some reason, each £403.80 was processed as £358.80 leaving a shortfall at the end.  This would seem to come under E&OE and not an agreement to change the total price to be paid...

The instalments appear to have been calculated before the "Additional item"  at £375 was incorporated into the total.  

The first four items on what the OP says was a VAT invoice are net prices excluding VAT.  So the full cost of the additional item plus VAT was £450.  The "VAT total £4038" on line 5 is the correct VAT inclusive total.

Subtract £450 from the agreed total of £4038 and you get the £3588 on which the instalments were wrongly calculated at 10%.

I think if the OP is looking for friendly advice she ought to ask her accountant if they think it's a particularly sensible thing to do to pay all invoices without even a cursory check.  Especially ones with calculated instalments.  If you get overcharged and the supplier goes bust it will be a bit late to expect your accountant to check at year end that 10% has been correctly calculated...

To which we have no idea if this was something added on after order was made?

We know that in answer to the question: "Was the additional item a late inclusion to the purchase?" the OP has answered "Yes".

I seems clear that the 10% instalment payments were calculated before the additional item was included, yet the seller has still itemised that additional item on the VAT invoice, and has included its price in the overall VAT inclusive total.

Obviously the seller is at fault for calculating the instalment payments from the wrong total, but I'd say the OP is equally at fault.  If you know what what the total price you are paying is, then it's the simplest thing in the world to check what 10% is.  It doesn't doesn't even need to be calculated.  Even a busy businesswoman ought to notice as soon as she sees the instalment amount.

If the OP agreed to pay £4038 I think she will be hard pushed to argue that she didn't realise that 10 x £358.80 must have been wrong.

But I don't think she's coming back...

born_again

Thanks missed that statement. 👍