England: Car dealership trying to sell our car without permission

Jonny2232

In short (there's a lot of missing back and forth)

• Purchased car for £x,xxx.  New family with small baby and needed extra space to make life easier.

• Was faulty, first fault (of many) appeared day after purchase

• Asked to drive to their courtyard to fix

• On way, car really struggled to drive and was dangerous.  Struggled to hit 30mph.  Very slow. Made it to courtyard, and said want a full refund as per my consumer rights. They refused. LBA issued

• Skipping some back and forth, mediation was unsuccessful and now waiting for a court date. They claimed car is now fully repaired and we should take it back. We do not want it back.

• The car is on their property as when I left it was unsafe to drive home

• Well within 30 days return window, and in this period drove car ~30 miles (excluding trips back and forth to dealership)

• During mediation, they said they would counter claim for storage fees and lost business. Offered to "buy back the car" for £x,xxx - ~£750 which we declined.

We're now waiting for a court date. Today, I check their website and AutoTrader and can see the car is back on sale for £x,xxx + £500 (roughly the cost I've paid to small claims to get to this stage).

• We're still paying insurance + road tax

• We have given no permission for them to sell the car

• I have a video recording of the odometer when I dropped the car off with them originally

We're unsure of what if anything we should do next?  Does them advertising the car show acceptance of the return?  Should we make any contact with them?

ButterCheese

Screenshot the car advert with a reliable date source next to it for a start, gather all the evidence you can.

Await more advice on here.  I've no idea what I'd do, but it sounds like the car went into limp mode (which limits it to 30mph), that's not necessarily dangerous but it certainly is a fault.  It could have been a minor fault that is easily corrected.  They don't have to issue a refund, they offered to repair it but you refused.  That could be a sticking point.  But they are certainly not allowed to sell it without your permission, and I'm guessing are not a trusted and professional dealership if they're doing that

Jonny2232

The fault history is:

1. Day after purchase dashboard engine warning light came on
2. Called dealership, said happy for it to be repaired.  Instructed me to wait for garage appointment
3. 10 days later, no contact.  New dashboard message "engine malfunction".  Called up as they hadn't booked me an appointment, and said we want refund.  They refused and said we agreed to repair as it's a related issue and is minor.  I said in the spirit of resolving this, we will allow you to repair it.  Instructed to wait for garage appointment.
4. Date for garage appointment was a week later.  Drove car to them which is when more serious faults developed (lurching car, limp mode).  Arrived and insisted on refund as have no faith in the car.

visidigi

have you had anything from the DVLA to say the car is no longer registered to you? Assuming you got the V5 for the original purchase through in your name?

Jonny2232

We haven't received the V5C, however I have just spoken to the DVLA and they can confirm the car is in my name and my address.

To receive a new log book we need the VIN number and to be honest I don't feel particularly comfortable going to the dealership to get it.

Jonny2232

(We do have a V5C-0720 form if that's relevant)

Alderbank

Consumer rights are biassed in the consumer's favour to help redress the imbalance between the little consumer and the big company, but they do try to be fair to both parties.

Reg 23(6) of the Consumer Rights Act says that if you agree to a repair you have to allow them to carry out that repair (in a reasonable time), having agreed to a repair you can't just say 'I've changed my mind, give me a refund instead.'

Bide your time. If the repair is satisfactory that would be the best solution all round. If it's not then they can't insist on having another go, you are entitled to reject the car but doing so and getting money back will probably not be an easy process.

You say you bought the car for £x.xx. How did you pay for it?

DullGreyGuy

They're certainly trying to have their cake and eat it!

In principle rejecting the vehicle and returning it to them makes it their property in which case they'd be free to sell it but cannot be charging storage fees. Your claim would be they haven't paid you after accepting it was rejected. 

Alternatively the argument is that it remains your property until the refund, their claim for storage would be on very shaky grounds as they are the creators of their own misfortune as they could simply refund you and take the title. However advertising a car for sale is not the same as actually selling it. Its well known companies advertise things that dont exist (looking at you job agencies) with the intention of drawing in potential customers to which they can then explain its not available however they have X instead. 

I'm not close enough to court proceedings to know at what point the courts have deemed the title to transfer, certainly ordinarily you return first and get refund within 14 days/without reasonable delay and most people dont ask what's happened to their returned goods in the period between sending and receiving the refund.

Grumpy_chap

Jonny2232 said:

In short (there's a lot of missing back and forth)

• Purchased car for £x,xxx.  New family with small baby and needed extra space to make life easier.

• Was faulty, first fault (of many) appeared day after purchase

• Asked to drive to their courtyard to fix

• On way, car really struggled to drive and was dangerous.  Struggled to hit 30mph.  Very slow. Made it to courtyard, and said want a full refund as per my consumer rights. They refused. LBA issued

• Skipping some back and forth, mediation was unsuccessful and now waiting for a court date. They claimed car is now fully repaired and we should take it back. We do not want it back.

• The car is on their property as when I left it was unsafe to drive home

• Well within 30 days return window, and in this period drove car ~30 miles (excluding trips back and forth to dealership)

• During mediation, they said they would counter claim for storage fees and lost business. Offered to "buy back the car" for £x,xxx - ~£750 which we declined.

We're now waiting for a court date. Today, I check their website and AutoTrader and can see the car is back on sale for £x,xxx + £500 (roughly the cost I've paid to small claims to get to this stage).

• We're still paying insurance + road tax

• We have given no permission for them to sell the car

• I have a video recording of the odometer when I dropped the car off with them originally

We're unsure of what if anything we should do next?  Does them advertising the car show acceptance of the return?  Should we make any contact with them?

You want to reject the car and have a full refund.
The garage seems to be refusing your short term right to reject.  On the other hand, this seems to have gone from purchase - fault - reject - LBA very swiftly.
The garage is now advertising the car at what you paid +£500.  Maybe that £500 is negotiating margin.
If the garage now sells the car for what you paid or thereabouts it will make it easier for the garage to accept your rejection and refund you.

What actually is the fault?
Ignore the car going into limp mode.
It may well be that the fault was simple to resolve, is now resolved, and your best to accept the car even though it was a poor start to the relationship.

Jonny2232

Alderbank said:

Consumer rights are biassed in the consumer's favour to help redress the imbalance between the little consumer and the big company, but they do try to be fair to both parties.

Reg 23(6) of the Consumer Rights Act says that if you agree to a repair you have to allow them to carry out that repair (in a reasonable time), having agreed to a repair you can't just say 'I've changed my mind, give me a refund instead.'

Bide your time. If the repair is satisfactory that would be the best solution all round. If it's not then they can't insist on having another go, you are entitled to reject the car but doing so and getting money back will probably not be an easy process.

You say you bought the car for £x.xx. How did you pay for it?

The original repair was for a sensor issue.  Then the second issue was an "Engine malfunction" dashboard light.  I said I do not consider this a related issue, they insisted it was.  I therefore reluctantly agreed to a repair to try and resolve the issue.

When the repair came round, the car was lurching and struggled to reach 30mph.  I am not a mechanic but I agreed to a sensor repair, not repairs of a car in such a poor condition overall.

Timeline is:

 - Day 1 reported engine malfunction light, told to wait for garage appointment
 - Day 13 no contact from dealership, engine malfunction light appeared.
 - Day 14 called dealership.  Said coincidentally that the garage appointment had been booked and they were just about to call me.  I asked what garage, what time.  They could not answer.  Asked for a refund via email.
 - Day 16 they said it's a sensor issue, easily fixable and I agreed to repair.  Reluctantly agreed for repair.
 - Day 24 told me appointment booked in 6 days time
 - Day 30 took car in and was lurching and in limp mode.  Too dangerous to drive home.

born_again

Jonny2232 said:

We haven't received the V5C, however I have just spoken to the DVLA and they can confirm the car is in my name and my address.

To receive a new log book we need the VIN number and to be honest I don't feel particularly comfortable going to the dealership to get it.

Strange they need the VIN for V5.
Especially as you have 2nd page of V5. Which has VIN on.
When buying car dealer should have transferred ownership on line via DVLA at time of purchase. So you get email confirmation at time.

https://api.gm.weblast.net/media/images/full_logbook.pdf