England: Car dealership trying to sell our car without permission

Jonny2232

Grumpy_chap said:

Jonny2232 said:

In short (there's a lot of missing back and forth)

• Purchased car for £x,xxx.  New family with small baby and needed extra space to make life easier.

• Was faulty, first fault (of many) appeared day after purchase

• Asked to drive to their courtyard to fix

• On way, car really struggled to drive and was dangerous.  Struggled to hit 30mph.  Very slow. Made it to courtyard, and said want a full refund as per my consumer rights. They refused. LBA issued

• Skipping some back and forth, mediation was unsuccessful and now waiting for a court date. They claimed car is now fully repaired and we should take it back. We do not want it back.

• The car is on their property as when I left it was unsafe to drive home

• Well within 30 days return window, and in this period drove car ~30 miles (excluding trips back and forth to dealership)

• During mediation, they said they would counter claim for storage fees and lost business. Offered to "buy back the car" for £x,xxx - ~£750 which we declined.

We're now waiting for a court date. Today, I check their website and AutoTrader and can see the car is back on sale for £x,xxx + £500 (roughly the cost I've paid to small claims to get to this stage).

• We're still paying insurance + road tax

• We have given no permission for them to sell the car

• I have a video recording of the odometer when I dropped the car off with them originally

We're unsure of what if anything we should do next?  Does them advertising the car show acceptance of the return?  Should we make any contact with them?

You want to reject the car and have a full refund.
The garage seems to be refusing your short term right to reject.  On the other hand, this seems to have gone from purchase - fault - reject - LBA very swiftly.
The garage is now advertising the car at what you paid +£500.  Maybe that £500 is negotiating margin.
If the garage now sells the car for what you paid or thereabouts it will make it easier for the garage to accept your rejection and refund you.

What actually is the fault?
Ignore the car going into limp mode.
It may well be that the fault was simple to resolve, is now resolved, and your best to accept the car even though it was a poor start to the relationship.

 - I have an OBD reader and the original fault was P0017 - Crankshaft position Camshaft position Correlation Bank 1 Sensor B.
 - Regarding the engine malfunction warning that developed shortly thereafter, no idea of cause or if related.
 - Regarding the lurching and likely limp mode, no idea of cause or if related.

Other faults I did report which agreed to repair originally when reported the engine warning light: 
 - One seatbelt did not work
 - CD player did not work

We had a 5 month old baby at the time, just trying to buy a family car to drive him around in.  The car is not fit for purpose so am under the impression I am entitled to a full refund, which is why we purchased from a business in the first place.  I do not feel comfortable owning a car that developed so many issues within 30 miles of driving.

Jonny2232

DullGreyGuy said:

They're certainly trying to have their cake and eat it!

In principle rejecting the vehicle and returning it to them makes it their property in which case they'd be free to sell it but cannot be charging storage fees. Your claim would be they haven't paid you after accepting it was rejected. 

Alternatively the argument is that it remains your property until the refund, their claim for storage would be on very shaky grounds as they are the creators of their own misfortune as they could simply refund you and take the title. However advertising a car for sale is not the same as actually selling it. Its well known companies advertise things that dont exist (looking at you job agencies) with the intention of drawing in potential customers to which they can then explain its not available however they have X instead. 

I'm not close enough to court proceedings to know at what point the courts have deemed the title to transfer, certainly ordinarily you return first and get refund within 14 days/without reasonable delay and most people dont ask what's happened to their returned goods in the period between sending and receiving the refund.

I've only noticed the advert today, but the LBA was sent to them ~75 days ago, with a deadline to respond that passed two weeks after that date.

LightFlare

I would be very concerned about a car I was documented as registered keeper being totally outside of my personal control not to mention insured as well.

Jonny2232

I am willing to go and collect the car, but have been advised it might constitute acceptance of the condition of it.  Even if not, is going to complicate things further.

So am completely lost as to what our next steps should be.

Okell

ButterCheese said:

  ...They don't have to issue a refund, they offered to repair it but you refused...

I don't think you're right...

If the OP were exercising his 30 day short term right to reject under s22 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, then the dealer does have to issue a refund if the car has a fault, and if they offer a repair the consumer is perfectly entitled to refuse that offer and insist on a full refund.

(I base this comment on the OP's first post which the above quoted post was responding to.  I see from subsequent posts by the OP that the first post might not contain the whole story...)

Jonny2232

@Okell I did omit some information which is relevant now as otherwise it would of been a much longer post.  The fault time line is as follows:

 - Day 1 reported engine malfunction light, told to wait for garage appointment. Happy to have repaired.
 - Day 13 no contact from dealership, new engine malfunction light appeared.
 - Day 14 called dealership.  Said coincidentally that the garage appointment had been booked and they were just about to call me.  I asked what garage, what time.  They could not answer.  Asked for a refund via email.
 - Day 16 they said it's related to the first engine malfunction light issue, easily fixable and I reluctantly agreed for repair in order to get it wrapped up.
 - Day 24 told me appointment booked in 6 days time
 - Day 30 took car in and was lurching and in limp mode.  Too dangerous to drive home.
- Total mileage driven 70, of which ~40 was back and forth to the dealership

Jonny2232

Note I am exercising the 30 day right to reject and explicitly mentioned this in writing.  Even though day 30 I took the car in, the 30 days gets paused when the issue is first reported so I am well within the 30 day limit.

Also worth noting is that total miles driven is 70 in this entire period, with 40 of those being back and forth to dealership.

Okell

Alderbank said:

... Reg 23(6) of the Consumer Rights Act says that if you agree to a repair you have to allow them to carry out that repair (in a reasonable time), having agreed to a repair you can't just say 'I've changed my mind, give me a refund instead.'...

Yes - but is this case that straightforward?

I find the OP's narrative confusing, but isn't he saying that although he agreed to a repair for the initial fault, that further faults manifested themselves when he was returning the car for the initial agreed repair, and at that point he rejected it?

So long as he's within 30 days of delivery couldn't he still have exercised the short term right to reject?  Especially including time while the 30 day clock was paused waiting for repair?

Or are you saying that once the OP has agreed to a repair of fault A, he can't then reject the vehicle for faults B & C that manifest themselves after the agreement?

(BTW - I don't know the answer and I think the OP could have handles this better than he has...)

Okell

Jonny2232 said:

DullGreyGuy said:

They're certainly trying to have their cake and eat it!

In principle rejecting the vehicle and returning it to them makes it their property in which case they'd be free to sell it but cannot be charging storage fees. Your claim would be they haven't paid you after accepting it was rejected. 

Alternatively the argument is that it remains your property until the refund, their claim for storage would be on very shaky grounds as they are the creators of their own misfortune as they could simply refund you and take the title. However advertising a car for sale is not the same as actually selling it. Its well known companies advertise things that dont exist (looking at you job agencies) with the intention of drawing in potential customers to which they can then explain its not available however they have X instead. 

I'm not close enough to court proceedings to know at what point the courts have deemed the title to transfer, certainly ordinarily you return first and get refund within 14 days/without reasonable delay and most people dont ask what's happened to their returned goods in the period between sending and receiving the refund.

I've only noticed the advert today, but the LBA was sent to them ~75 days ago, with a deadline to respond that passed two weeks after that date.

So your LBA deadline expired two months ago?  Have you issued a claim yet?

I suspect the garage have called your bluff...

LightFlare said:

I would be very concerned about a car I was documented as registered keeper being totally outside of my personal control not to mention insured as well.

This would worry me too!

Unless the OP wants to back down and take the car back after repair, he needs to sort out the V5C and insurance position ASAP.

born_again

Fault B & C could be result of car being driven with original fault. Given a extra 50 miles driven after 1st fault appeared would not be beyond reason.

OP says 70 miles driven. But only 20 from dealer, in which 1st fault appeared.