Are old style meters in effect a contract...?????

Spoonie_Turtle

Scot_39 said:

And as to random price spikes.

Arguably agile and tracker are regularly subject to such "random" price fluctuation - on what can be an hourly or daily basis - simply every time the wind decides to blow or not - or the sun shine or not.

People signing up for the tariffs should know exactly what they're signing up for.  There's all of the information available from Octopus, and multiple sources of historical pricing for reference, plus a few predictors available including grid demand / input forecasts and price forecasts. 

Nobody is unknowingly or without consent exposed to these price spikes, we chose to sign up for the tariffs, we didn't have to. 

(Unit rates are still capped at £1/kWh for both Agile and Tracker, as you mentioned.)

Scot_39

So yes - if you look - you can see exactly that - evidence of past price variation.

Due to a whole host of complex interactions - wind, solar, demand etc. - across the UK - but for often several GW of demand or supply mix - across Northern Europe for interconnect supply / demand.

As good as "random" to most folk.

Given millions have probably never been on anything but big 6 suppliers standard and now cap rates - changing in past as little as maybe once per year - and now every 3m under cap - it's a massive step to expect them to be happy with such a tariff.

And to someone used to say paying 25p / kWh day in day out for months - seeing a spread of prices - like say even in just last week here

https://agileprices.co.uk/

Ranging from on a quick glance -1.4p to £1.00 - for the default region it launched with - would I suspect be in part frightening / bewildering to many.

Spoonie_Turtle

Scot_39 said:

So yes - if you look - you can see exactly that - evidence of past price variation.

Due to a whole host of complex interactions - wind, solar, demand etc. - across the UK - but for often several GW of demand or supply mix - across Northern Europe for interconnect supply / demand.

As good as "random" to most folk.

Given millions have probably never been on anything but big 6 suppliers standard and now cap rates - changing in past as little as maybe once per year - and now every 3m under cap - it's a massive step to expect them to be happy with such a tariff.

And to someone used to say paying 25p / kWh day in day out for months - seeing a spread of prices - like say even in just last week here

https://agileprices.co.uk/

Ranging from on a quick glance -1.4p to £1.00 - for the default region it launched with - would I suspect be in part frightening / bewildering to many.

So for those wanting to save money compared with the SVT but not on a single rate fix, almost certainly a better TOU tariff for them would be one of the many static options that give consistent periods of cheaper electricity at set times for a set unit rate, Economy 10-style. 

Nobody is being made or expected to sign up for dynamically priced tariffs, in fact they're not even widely encouraged by suppliers or any other organisation because of the variability of them.  There may be more takeup in the future as more people become used to different types of static TOU tariffs and then used to the idea of electricity costing more or less at different times due to levels of generation and demand, but we're a long way off dynamic tariffs being mainstream/popular, let alone the norm.

Scot_39

My post was in response to 

"Theoretically yes, surge pricing could become a thing with smart meters"

Which itself was probably a response to the OP's closing question at the top of the thread

"Can energy suppliers charge to ultra peak rates if you have a smart tariff ?"

 

I am pretty sure that many smart sceptics would see those example slots of Agile at £1.00 / kWh in link above as excessive (and thats Octopus's choice of cap - another supplier might not be as forgiving / generous - given they themselves could be paying far more to their suppliers for energy) - perhaps even "ultra peak" rates - as that is around 4x the current average SVT DD cap rate.

Is there a site that applies the raw formulae - for tracker and agile - to the actual baseline wholesale rates - and shows the uncapped rates (so not capped at £1 as above link ?)

So my point it's really not a can they and could become a thing - its an it already is a thing and they already are charging high peak rates at time - for some - who currently at least (in the sceptics mindset perhaps not for ever) make the choice.

Qyburn

Scot_39 said:

And to someone used to say paying 25p / kWh day in day out for months - seeing a spread of prices - like say even in just last week here

https://agileprices.co.uk/

Ranging from on a quick glance -1.4p to £1.00 - for the default region it launched with - would I suspect be in part frightening / bewildering to many.

You appear to think that getting a smart meter would force or trick you into accepting such a tariff. That's not correct, you are free to remain on your existing tariff, you don't have to take up any of the new options.

debitcardmayhem

Qyburn said:

Scot_39 said:

And to someone used to say paying 25p / kWh day in day out for months - seeing a spread of prices - like say even in just last week here

https://agileprices.co.uk/

Ranging from on a quick glance -1.4p to £1.00 - for the default region it launched with - would I suspect be in part frightening / bewildering to many.

You appear to think that getting a smart meter would force or trick you into accepting such a tariff. That's not correct, you are free to remain on your existing tariff, you don't have to take up any of the new options.

Seems you are quoting and drawing conclusion, I didn’t read the post as saying that.

Qyburn

Maybe, but the post I quoted needs the very important qualifer that anyone who finds Agile frightening or bewildering doesn't need to choose it. 

Highleccy

With the number of people on dynamic time of day tariffs being very low, the impact on demand isn't significant.
If everyone was on dynamic tariffs then the initial scenario of everyone putting on their kettles might not happen because they'd all realise it's going to be more expensive, so the demand falls and the 'surge' price is lower than it might have been.

* of course, boiling a half-full kettle uses just over 0.1kWh so even at the Agile £1 cap it's around 12p, or maybe 6p a cup.

EssexHebridean

Agile is dynamic pricing - I certainly wouldn't disagree with that. It's exactly what I signed up for! It's not "surge pricing" in the way that term is usually used though - we get notice of the pricing a reasonable amount of time ahead, and should that pricing not suit us, we are free to do a change of tariff and leave - and that will take effect before that pricing we don't like will affect us, in almost all cases.  Of course as most of us on Agile understand, it does generally benefit us - certainly in our household we are seeing solid savings each month since we have been on the tariff, and the days with higher pricing are worth riding out to get the benefits of the cheaper days - and indeed on occasion being paid to use electricity! 

Dynamic priced tariffs are definitely only for those who understand what they are entering into - to an extent that is true of any non SVR tariff, but definitely more so where there is dynamic pricing of any sort in the mix. Indeed, that sort of tariff generally scares the life out of (or completely bewilders!) anyone who hasn't already got a solid interest in how their energy bills work and where savings can be made - so to an extent there is already a self-protective mechanism inbuilt to complex tariffs. 

Scot_39

Qyburn said:

Scot_39 said:

And to someone used to say paying 25p / kWh day in day out for months - seeing a spread of prices - like say even in just last week here

https://agileprices.co.uk/

Ranging from on a quick glance -1.4p to £1.00 - for the default region it launched with - would I suspect be in part frightening / bewildering to many.

You appear to think that getting a smart meter would force or trick you into accepting such a tariff. That's not correct, you are free to remain on your existing tariff, you don't have to take up any of the new options.

Nonsense -  I dont think I said anything of the sort - that I personally think that. 

But I do strongly believe others really do fear it in future. And the OPs closing question suggests they have heard it expressed somewhere as a risk too

Can energy suppliers charge to ultra peak rates if you have a smart tariff ?

I am not a smart meter objector - was actually compared to many here I suspect a fairly early adaptor - I didn't even wait for smets2 despite knowing the potential limitations.

When my first digital replacement meter (i had twin rts replacements when moved in) needed replacing early - there was no EOL imposition by Ofgem at time - and legally at time there was no mandatory fitting in uk law - the fitter had both sorts - digital and smets1 in van - it would have ben quicker for him to fit the 5 port digital. There was no Ofgem or supllier pressure at all to go smart  - they had sent a letter with some of the benefits like the ihd - but that letter was you now had  choice.

But others who were consulted before roll out started certainly considered it a possible end point.  And so DAPF added to licensing conditions if not law. 
Simply put dapf means if your suplier doesn't get access to 1/2 hrly data for billing - they cannot then use that to impose tariffs based on it upon you.

Ofgem are now making that an opt out - let's see how many suppliers make it easy to do so - or nag there customers periodically to remind them it is even an option..

My supllier has in last few months regularly being prompting me to enable 1/2 hrly - something they haven't done for many years.
[They don't bill me using it, nor give me cheap rates via demand flexibility service - which my tariff pecificalky excludes me from - of any other special weekend price cut schemes at other suppliers].

And the whole direction of MHHS arguably only increases the risk.  As if as Ofgem now appear to see fit to allow increased access to our 1/2  hourly data - and suppliers will be having to use that growing user base accumulated 1/2 hrly data to settle more accurately with their suppliers - the generating companies - who charge surge demand pricing.

It is not as far fetched as some here seem to imagine to say the next level is it then makes sense for domestic suppliers to then recover from more if not all of their customers - us - more accurately on the same 1/2 hrly basis.

Ofgem think MHHS is going to save suplliers collectively £100s millions per year. 

And perhaps by implication allow lower rates for customers in future..

[They thought the same about switch to save, they thought the same about the cap - arguably introduced as switch to save clearly failing to protect the majority who never switched and never would or in some cases even could - like those on even simple let alone more complex legacy rts metering arrangements and tariffs - that Ofgem clearly failed to provide a flexible supplier support network for.
And yet we all ended up paying via SoLR - some reports estimate about £100 on average over last 2 years via bills alone - via taxes for Bulb's 1.6m customers taken into admin  ?? - for the combined impact of both policies on the failed suplliers.]



Mhhs might produce more truly dynamic directly coupled surge price tariffs like Agile or trackers or others with more fixed tou tariffs say like Cosy/ Lifetime.  It might not.

The later 2 - actually not a million miles in some respects from the basis of my old and now very poorly supported e10 or other legacy tariffs  (thanks in large part to Ofgems poor support for legacy all electric users reliant on such deals for expensive electric heating)  -  ironically. 

That might be by choice as currently - but then in future it might not be.

And my point is arguably DAPF was brought in for a reason  - that some feared it wouldn't be by choice.

As like the meters themselves, that were not made mandatory under law in UK - they have become mandatory in other nations. 

And if the hardware can become mandatory - or as it is doing effectively arguably by the backdoor in UK  - such as by Ofgem guidance the only defacto available option to many at EOL of old meters - who says that ultimately the surge pricing tariffs it supports - could not become so.

Smart meter sceptics do still exist  - we still see posts regularly from those who really don't want them.

And for a regulator who is regularly failing to ensure supliers meat roll out targets - perhaps giving - even just as a very remote risk - more potential ammunition to such sceptics is perhaps not the wisest move.