Are old style meters in effect a contract...?????

WantedMe

In 22 I changed the meter to Smart, Economy 7 didn't kick in so changed it back to an old style meter. This was with SSE... Then got passed onto OVO when SSE went kaput. Switched to Octopus in Oct 24 as OVO was a bit expensive..

Had a running battle with Octopus as they said and eventually they said this "We've investigated the meter readings alongside the billing information on file and found that our system had labelled the registers incorrectly. Your meter has a Standard Settlement Code of 0151, which dictates the times we charge for in the Time Pattern Regimen (TPR)."

So, the question, is the TPR setting for the meter register in effect a contract because SSE/OVO and Octopus in effect honored the setting of the TPR for the meter, didn't ask for it to be changed and haven't disputed the settings, even Octopus fessed up and said yes my reading of over 11K (off peak/weekends) on register 2 compared to < 3K on register 1 (daytime) was correct.

So, with "Smart Tariffs" and switching to a Smart Meter I lose this and what always strikes me is yes you can get cheap rates with Smart Tariffs but what happens when 11million people switch on to corrie/eastenders/emerdale special ? Can energy suppliers charge to ultra peak rates if you have a smart tariff ?

WantedMe

Sorry missed half, Octopus insisted that Register 2 was Peak. So I was always in debit.... Hope that clarifies things

Scot_39

According to https://www.engie.co.uk/sites/default/files/2022-03/TPR_Reference_sheet_2022.pdf

SSC 0151- is just 7 hrs off peak every night from 00:30 to 07:30 - any standard E7 configured smart meter should be able to do that.

They list 2 TPRs - the day is first - the night off peak is second.  But not sure thats explicitly how the meters would be configured register wise.

Theres a couple of posters here far more familiar with SSC and TPR codes though - so hopefully they can clarify.

Not all homes with E7 have the restricted circuit.

It should be pretty obvious to the meter fitter - but its good if you know too.

You shouldnt lose anything going forward - thats just plain vanilla E7 single 7 hour block as I read that table.

Your problem is the age old what register is peak and which register is off peak - and certainly on smets1 - let alone digital - there wasn't a common standard - not sure about smets2.

Ive always checked it every meter or tariff change - but that's because I've fallen victim in the past to a billing error on my old twin RTS system. ( I had 4 bill slots - day and a non existant physically night on meter 1 / boost offpeak on rts meter 2 - only 1,3 and 4 existed - but to be billed correctly iirc - rts off peak had to be entered manually by then as meter 1 off peak or something as crazy)

Ive seen people have register swap error issues with just changing tariffs at the same supplier - not just the more common problems on switching meters or suppliers.

The only way to resolve it on a meter / supplier basis that seems to work - for traditional meters is to take time stamped pictures of the registers - during the day and the night periods - and have them switch the order on your individual account.

I suspect for smart the 48 time stamped half hour readings would probably allow the same.

WantedMe

Had to do a space test on the to meter to verify which register was peak/off peak.

Reed_Richards

WantedMe said:

... what happens when 11million people switch on to corrie/eastenders/emerdale special ? Can energy suppliers charge to ultra peak rates if you have a smart tariff ?

Traditionally the problem was not what happens when 11 million people switch on to a popular TV show because TVs don't usually consume that much power; less these days.  The problem arose when the popular programme finished and a lot of people then put on the kettle to make tea, consuming far more power.  Fewer people watch live TV these days so I'm sure it's less of a problem than it used to be.

Could energy suppliers charge ultra peak rates at such times?  Well, yes, that's possible but that would mean everyone with a smart meter would have to be on a time-of-use tariff; it can only be a small proportion of smart meter users at the moment.  Maybe it will happen at some time in the future but by then you will have been forced to have a smart meter anyway.  So it's not a good reason for refusing a smart meter now.   

Chrysalis

WantedMe said:

So, with "Smart Tariffs" and switching to a Smart Meter I lose this and what always strikes me is yes you can get cheap rates with Smart Tariffs but what happens when 11million people switch on to corrie/eastenders/emerdale special ? Can energy suppliers charge to ultra peak rates if you have a smart tariff ?

They cant just randomly do it on a whim no, the details of the tariff are contracted.

Some examples.

Octopus Cosy/Go and Tomato Energy lifestyle tariffs have time of use rates, but they set in place, and will be honoured during the contract.  So you know what you signing up for at the start.

Octopus Tracker is a smart tariff, but it isnt time of use, so same price all day, but the rate you pay from day to day varies, again though it sticks to same formula for the duration of contract, so you know what to expect.

Octopus Agile, and Tomato Energy Smile tariffs, have a formula, but unlike tracker its 30min slot pricing instead of daily pricing so is a time of use tariff.  It is these tariff's, that will be most exposed to the problem you fear, but the formula is set for the duration of the contract.  The max unit rate is also capped.

SVR tariffs and fixed rate tariffs are still available on smart meters.

Qyburn

Chrysalis said:

Octopus Tracker is a smart tariff, but it isnt time of use, so same price all day, but the rate you pay from day to day varies, again though it sticks to same formula for the duration of contract, so you know what to expect.

Octopus Agile, and Tomato Energy Smile tariffs, have a formula, but unlike tracker its 30min slot pricing instead of daily pricing so is a time of use tariff.  It is these tariff's, that will be most exposed to the problem you fear, but the formula is set for the duration of the contract.  The max unit rate is also capped.

Also both Tracker and Agile are linked to wholesale prices known in advance. So even Agile price can't spike up in response to an unexpected peak load.

EssexHebridean

I'm on a Time of Use tariff - Octopus Agile - and in my old home I was on Economy 7, so I've got a fair number of years experience of time of use tariffs and load-shifting - indeed, the reason for deciding to go to Agile was that we were already good at ensuring we shifted use to off-peak times. Agile now requires a bit more thinking from us - as said above it is 30 minutes slots and we get to see the following days prices at 4pm each day which gives us enough time to decide when to put the washing machine or dishwasher on, and whether in fact we do want to cook that full roast dinner! Even just avoiding doing anything energy-heavy during the "peak" window of 4pm - 7pm would see us make a saving over a standard variable tariff though. 

Theoretically yes, surge pricing could become a thing with smart meters - but in fact what is probably far more likely to happen is that people will much as now be encouraged to go onto fixed tariffs, or other smart tariffs, and those who don't engage will end up paying more as a result of their apathy. The one thing you can be sure of is that down the line, an old style traditional non smart meter will certainly NOT be a cheaper way of getting your energy! 

Scot_39

But surge pricing is already a thing.

From a google search for surge pricing - the first thing to come up is a quote directly from

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_pricing

Agile by that definition is in fact a perfect example of surge pricing - because that is exactly what drives the wholesale 1/2 hourly auction slot pricing behind it - demand vs available power mix.

And I saw in a post recently iirc another "new" challenger Tomato ? now do a similar electricity tariff.

And although arguably not as explicitly tied - if you look at other Octopus tariffs like Cosy, or Tomato lifestyle pricing slots - those are clearly reflecting longer term average market demand - again examples of tariffs based on surge pricing.

Many selected tracker rather than agile to avoid it's surge pricing model - but still benefit vs cap rates (more so as prices were falling arguably).

The spikes at 4-6pm you see regularly on agile / kWh rates - that peak demand slot pricing being transferred to us as customers - is exactly what govt surveys showed as a clear "block" to the acceptance of the roll out over a decade ago for some users - and to offset that concern / risk - they added the DAPF - to license conditions.

In fact some would still as did at the time - argue that the only reason smart meters were given 1/2 hourly data logging - was to support the ultimate goal of surge pricing.

Ofgem has now effectively eroded DAPFs inherent upfront protection - as 1/2 hourly access is now going to be permitted by default upon switching suppliers (iirc that was proposal - the final version ?) under measures to support MHHS (half hour settlement). Although it was proposed - domestic - but not micro businesses - will still be allowed to then opt out of that process in some way.

Many here may not think changing from an opt in to an opt out - is that significant a change to be worried about - but a substantial minority - well one big enough for govt to provide DAPF in first place - who object to surge pricing might - as just another step on the slippery slope.

Qyburn

Scot_39 said:

But surge pricing is already a thing.

Not in the way that conspiracy theorists claim. Conspiracy theory is that customers with smart meters will be subject to random price spikes, irrespective of any tariff they may have agreed. And customers without smart meters will be unaffected and pay lower prices.

Scot_39

Tracker and agile in the UK operate on a far tighter cap - and unlike those elesewhere - are not fixed term contracts - despite the rate formulae fixed terms as can get out fairly quickly (iirc Octopus used to warn say 2 weeks max in tracker's early "beta" days).

Trackers in the US - well the ones my company had rented appartments on in Texas for instance - were genuinely fixed terms - min 6m - 12m more common - and the caps a damn site higher than say £1 (not sure what current Octopus cap is on agile / tracker).

During their "polar vortex" / near "grid collapse" four years ago - a few of my colleagues were still there and they and US employees on their Trackers - were getting initial bills linked to the then statewide wholesale cap of $9000/MWh - around "oops" £7/kWh.

But these were later lowered.

And as to random price spikes.

Arguably agile and tracker are regularly subject to such "random" price fluctuation - on what can be an hourly or daily basis - simply every time the wind decides to blow or not - or the sun shine or not.