How do I approach these issues?

ReadySteadyPop

EssexHebridean said:

Theleak250 said:

LMurphybear said:

Maahes said:

A lot of what you describe is simply apartment living. You need to separate what you can address and what you can't. You can't dictate when people get up in the morning and if they have permission to keep a dog you can't do anything about that either. All dogs bark but there's difference between a dog barking for a short time and a dog barking incessantly. My dog woke me up at 5:30 this morning as she wanted to go out but now she's asleep. Similarly you can't dictate what toys an owner gives their pets.

If the lease agreement states that carpets must be used then go to the management company about that. If a leak damages your property make a claim on your insurance but ultimately you may have to accept that your neighbours are noisy people and there isn't much you're going to be able to do about that. I doubt the landlord is going to entertain replacing all the flooring in the property.

My daughter lived for years under a family who sounded like they had a shire horse living with them, it's not pleasant and ultimately they moved as the landlord wouldn't address it.

We lived in a flat that was part of a house conversion.  The girl in the flat above started practising her tap dancing.  . Fortunately a quick word in her ear and she apologised, gave us a bottle of wine and found somewhere else to practise.  

My experience over the years has been that converted flats are generally much noisier than purpose built.  I lived in a small ex council block in London and I could never hear anything from the people above.  

Useful thing to consider for anyone buying a flat 

I would say to anyone buying a flat, stay away from wooden floors. Concrete only.

Trust me, when the flat upstairs to you has all its carpets ripped out and replaced with cheap laminate, you still hear all the noise even if the floor is concrete! I’d have happily swapped out a barking dog for the toddler riding a peddle car from one end of the flat to the other repeatedly for hours on end! 😆

Usually some noise of your own gets people to realise what they are doing and moderate their behaviour, "Oh you like using your floor for a peddle car track during the day, that`s cool, I tend to play 70`s hard rock, UFO, AC/DC that sort of thing around 8 or 9 at night, hope you don`t mind?"

ReadySteadyPop

Theleak250 said:

Jude57 said:

Theleak250 said:

Murphybear said:

Maahes said:

A lot of what you describe is simply apartment living. You need to separate what you can address and what you can't. You can't dictate when people get up in the morning and if they have permission to keep a dog you can't do anything about that either. All dogs bark but there's difference between a dog barking for a short time and a dog barking incessantly. My dog woke me up at 5:30 this morning as she wanted to go out but now she's asleep. Similarly you can't dictate what toys an owner gives their pets.

If the lease agreement states that carpets must be used then go to the management company about that. If a leak damages your property make a claim on your insurance but ultimately you may have to accept that your neighbours are noisy people and there isn't much you're going to be able to do about that. I doubt the landlord is going to entertain replacing all the flooring in the property.

My daughter lived for years under a family who sounded like they had a shire horse living with them, it's not pleasant and ultimately they moved as the landlord wouldn't address it.

We lived in a flat that was part of a house conversion.  The girl in the flat above started practising her tap dancing.  . Fortunately a quick word in her ear and she apologised, gave us a bottle of wine and found somewhere else to practise.  

My experience over the years has been that converted flats are generally much noisier than purpose built.  I lived in a small ex council block in London and I could never hear anything from the people above.  

Useful thing to consider for anyone buying a flat 

I would say to anyone buying a flat, stay away from wooden floors. Concrete only.

Nope. I live in a 1960's concrete tower block and the floors between storeys are reinforced concrete. It's a perfect sound conductor and uncarpeted concrete floors are horrendous for anyone living beneath them because if the neighbours above drop a teaspoon it sounds like a fridge being dropped from 10 feet. Children running up and down the hallway sound like herds of stampeding elephants and music played at anything over 'whisper' volume is transmitted through walls and floors as though through paper. The only way to live here is by being a considerate neighbour, not doing your washing at midnight, turning music off by midnight, having carpets with good quality underlay and curtains to help absorb the sound, not slamming doors etc. Unfortunately, modern living where people don't want (or can't afford) good carpeting but have cheap, poorly laid laminate flooring and blinds instead of curtains means that the everyday sounds that shouldn't be a problem, become unbearable. It's supposed to be a condition of tenancies here that such flooring is not allowed but, realistically, there's nothing the Housing Association can do once people put it down.

I'm unfortunately currently experiencing the effects of inconsiderate neighbours involving parties that last days without a break, constant noise from video games and much more and while my Housing Association are being really proactive, I've no guarantee that it will ever be fully resolved. At least I do have their support which is something. My hope is to be able to move from here in the next year or so which, after 17 years, wouldn't have been my ideal choice but, as my Antisocial Behaviour Team Officer said, people are now being housed in these flats who would previously never have been allocated them, i.e. young, single, unemployed people and it's not likely to improve. I really feel for OP because as an owner, there's so little support available.

Oh that’s terrible. I hope you move out. I must have been lucky in the past, as all my previous flats were concrete and I hardly heard them. In my current place with wood you can hear every footstep, draw closing, phone vibrating (I assume when they leave it on the floor).

if I had parties above and I owned, I’d go and live with a relative and either put the place up for sale, or rent another place as in a room! Selling at a loss is a terrible outcome. 

Better than having no peaceful enjoyment of your living space in my opinion, worst outcome is that you get into arguments/disagreements with the neighbour that you have to disclose when selling, then you might never sell.

ThisIsWeird

Theleak250 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Theleak250 said:

I would suggest if the first plumber missed the dodgy sealant and dodgy shower door, their advice is not worth much, the second plumber, I would suggest they were not given full access. I believe the leak is within a covered coving where the pipes are covered.

"I believe the leak is within a covered coving where the pipes are covered."

What do you mean by 'covered coving'? Is this within the upstairs flat? You are referring to pipes that are 'boxed-in', and this is where - running along the skirting?

The drips you hear - are they steady and constant?

Yes basically the pipes from the bath, sink and toilet are within a cover and this is tiled in. These are along the back of the bathroom in the flat above. This backs onto my wardrobe directly under it on the very edge of the room.

The drips are not steady or consistent. They are intermittent. 

Since they are intermittent, chances are that - from that lot - the leak is from the toilet soil waste. :-(
So, no plumber has removed that boxing to investigate? Some pressure is required...

ThisIsWeird

Theleak250 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Hi The leak.
Did this plumber (in fact, all of them) check the location and type of damage caused within your flat? Were the drips audible at the time?
Do you have Legal Protection included in your Contents insurance? If so, call them up for advice and guidance - it's free, and that's what it's for.
Even if you don't have LP, I'd still contact your insurance company to advise them that ongoing damage is being caused to your property. First write down a brief, but concise, chronological outline of what has happened so far - the date of first leak, ideally photos from then, when you contacted the occupant, what the first plumber reported, when you contacted the flat's owner, when you contacted the Freeholder/ManCo etc etc. 
In cases like this, when one flat causes largely cosmetic damage to another through an unanticipated leak, the 'victim' flat usually needs to cover their own repairs, using their Contents insurance if needed. Seems a bit unfair, but hey. However, if the owner/occupants of the leaking flat were 'negligent' - Ie can be deemed to have caused, contributed to, or failed to address the leak when informed, then they can (should) become liable. You are surely at that stage now?
So, get guidance from your insurance co, and Def through your LP if you have it (and if you don't, then add it for the future).
Make sure you have a paper/comms trail of contact you have made to all parties. Make sure you capture all the evidence of the damage being caused at each stage.

This looks as tho' it's in the 'escalating' stage where 'negligence' can now be inferred; they are provably aware of the ongoing issue, but have repeatedly failed to address it. They therefore should be put in the position of being forced to address it, possibly by something like a court order, and also assume all liability.

Really, your Man Co or building Freeholder should be doing this - they have the power. Whether this means you can pass this 'negligence' on to them if they fail to act, I don't know, but I think the word 'negligent' should be brought into play, 'due to a failure to act'.
LegProt would have had a handle on this - could you double-check whether you have this?
Some Googling suggests that the Man Co/Freeholder should be acting on this. Eg: https://www.redbrickpm.co.uk/blog/water-damage-from-flat-above-who-is-liable/
Perhaps - in writing - suggest that, as they have both the power and obligation to sort such issues, you will consider them negligent if they fail to do so? (But take advice from the more informed).
In essence, cover yourself - a full, evidenced, paper-trail of what you gave done, and who you have informed.

Make sure you can evidence the whole situation.

But, I don't know the way forward. I understand, tho', that a Leaseholder can oblige a Freeholder to act on the terms in their lease.

Hmm - this suggests they can, but only if this is mentioned in the terms of the lease, and also that the leaseholder needs to foot the legal bill! https://www.lease-advice.org/faq/how-can-a-leaseholder-enforce-the-covenants-in-the-lease-against-another-leaseholder/

So - with further advice - passing the 'negligence' responsibility on to the FH, if they don't act, may be the way forward. Read your deeds carefully - does it say anything about who can enforce the terms of the lease? It might say that other leaseholders can, or it might say to report breaches to the FH. And, I guess, it might say neither.

LegProt - have you checked? If you don't have it, call your insurance co - they have an interest in this, as they may have to foot the repair bill inside your flat - the longer you leave it, the greater the damage. You will likely now be at the stage of some replastering being required, whereas a simple repaint would almost certainly have sorted the issue before now. They would also appreciate knowing if they could counter with a 'negligence' claim against either of the other parties.

And, no, I personally would not employ my own plumber to investigate this. Almost certainly this will just muddy the waters. And, if they want to rip up some flooring, for example, who is going to pay for this?! And if they find nothing...?! You need to find out who is now 'liable' and 'negligent' by failing to act. Surely either the flat's owner, or the FH.

CALL YOUR INSURANCE CO!

And, if you bump into that flat's neighbour, ask if they are disturbed by the dog or any other noise - tho' it would be unusual for footsteps noise to travel sideways. If that LH is also disturbed or woken by the dog, then - perhaps when the leak issue is resolved - you both submit complaints?
Bottom line - the FH can enforce the terms of the lease, and it would be a very foolish LHer to not respond correctly, as they could ultimately forfeit their lease. The Q is - and I don't know the answer - would the FH be 'negligent' in this leak case if they fail to act to enforce?

Yes the plumber briefly checked to confirm the wall was damp and the location of it.

I do have legal protection within the contents insurance.

I am happy to cover the expenses of the repair. If it could be classed as negligent I don't know.

I can give them a call if required, I see that as a last resort. 

You have LP - well done. Now use it. It's free - Ie, you have paid for it - and this is a classic case where they should be able to advise you correctly.
There is nothing to suggest that the actual leak is or was caused through 'negligence', unless - say - the owner got incompetent Bob from his local pub to plumb it in cashinhand.
However, it is 'negligent' for the owner to fail to have it sorted once informed, and - on that basis - they can be made liable for any subsequent damage.
Say, for example, you noticed a stain on your ceiling, and informed the owner of the flat above. If they got the leak fixed, then you could cover the stain at little cost, and that would normally be down to you. Job sorted. If, however, the owner didn't get the leak fixed and the ceiling came down, they would now be liable for the repair.
Seriously, call your LP, and be guided by them. Get the info ready beforehand, as succinctly as possible.

Theleak250

ThisIsWeird said:

Theleak250 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Theleak250 said:

I would suggest if the first plumber missed the dodgy sealant and dodgy shower door, their advice is not worth much, the second plumber, I would suggest they were not given full access. I believe the leak is within a covered coving where the pipes are covered.

"I believe the leak is within a covered coving where the pipes are covered."

What do you mean by 'covered coving'? Is this within the upstairs flat? You are referring to pipes that are 'boxed-in', and this is where - running along the skirting?

The drips you hear - are they steady and constant?

Yes basically the pipes from the bath, sink and toilet are within a cover and this is tiled in. These are along the back of the bathroom in the flat above. This backs onto my wardrobe directly under it on the very edge of the room.

The drips are not steady or consistent. They are intermittent. 

Since they are intermittent, chances are that - from that lot - the leak is from the toilet soil waste. :-(
So, no plumber has removed that boxing to investigate? Some pressure is required...

I have told him to do this, if he refuses I will be at the end of the line patience and understanding wise. 

ThisIsWeird

Why haven't you called your LegProt? We wouldn't have gone beyond page one

EssexHebridean

ReadySteadyPop said:

EssexHebridean said:

Theleak250 said:

LMurphybear said:

Maahes said:

A lot of what you describe is simply apartment living. You need to separate what you can address and what you can't. You can't dictate when people get up in the morning and if they have permission to keep a dog you can't do anything about that either. All dogs bark but there's difference between a dog barking for a short time and a dog barking incessantly. My dog woke me up at 5:30 this morning as she wanted to go out but now she's asleep. Similarly you can't dictate what toys an owner gives their pets.

If the lease agreement states that carpets must be used then go to the management company about that. If a leak damages your property make a claim on your insurance but ultimately you may have to accept that your neighbours are noisy people and there isn't much you're going to be able to do about that. I doubt the landlord is going to entertain replacing all the flooring in the property.

My daughter lived for years under a family who sounded like they had a shire horse living with them, it's not pleasant and ultimately they moved as the landlord wouldn't address it.

We lived in a flat that was part of a house conversion.  The girl in the flat above started practising her tap dancing.  . Fortunately a quick word in her ear and she apologised, gave us a bottle of wine and found somewhere else to practise.  

My experience over the years has been that converted flats are generally much noisier than purpose built.  I lived in a small ex council block in London and I could never hear anything from the people above.  

Useful thing to consider for anyone buying a flat 

I would say to anyone buying a flat, stay away from wooden floors. Concrete only.

Trust me, when the flat upstairs to you has all its carpets ripped out and replaced with cheap laminate, you still hear all the noise even if the floor is concrete! I’d have happily swapped out a barking dog for the toddler riding a peddle car from one end of the flat to the other repeatedly for hours on end! 😆

Usually some noise of your own gets people to realise what they are doing and moderate their behaviour, "Oh you like using your floor for a peddle car track during the day, that`s cool, I tend to play 70`s hard rock, UFO, AC/DC that sort of thing around 8 or 9 at night, hope you don`t mind?"

Might have been a little harsh on the neighbours on either side of us though, no?  Solutions that might be practical in a semi detached house rarely work for folk in flats. 

ReadySteadyPop

EssexHebridean said:

ReadySteadyPop said:

EssexHebridean said:

Theleak250 said:

LMurphybear said:

Maahes said:

A lot of what you describe is simply apartment living. You need to separate what you can address and what you can't. You can't dictate when people get up in the morning and if they have permission to keep a dog you can't do anything about that either. All dogs bark but there's difference between a dog barking for a short time and a dog barking incessantly. My dog woke me up at 5:30 this morning as she wanted to go out but now she's asleep. Similarly you can't dictate what toys an owner gives their pets.

If the lease agreement states that carpets must be used then go to the management company about that. If a leak damages your property make a claim on your insurance but ultimately you may have to accept that your neighbours are noisy people and there isn't much you're going to be able to do about that. I doubt the landlord is going to entertain replacing all the flooring in the property.

My daughter lived for years under a family who sounded like they had a shire horse living with them, it's not pleasant and ultimately they moved as the landlord wouldn't address it.

We lived in a flat that was part of a house conversion.  The girl in the flat above started practising her tap dancing.  . Fortunately a quick word in her ear and she apologised, gave us a bottle of wine and found somewhere else to practise.  

My experience over the years has been that converted flats are generally much noisier than purpose built.  I lived in a small ex council block in London and I could never hear anything from the people above.  

Useful thing to consider for anyone buying a flat 

I would say to anyone buying a flat, stay away from wooden floors. Concrete only.

Trust me, when the flat upstairs to you has all its carpets ripped out and replaced with cheap laminate, you still hear all the noise even if the floor is concrete! I’d have happily swapped out a barking dog for the toddler riding a peddle car from one end of the flat to the other repeatedly for hours on end! 😆

Usually some noise of your own gets people to realise what they are doing and moderate their behaviour, "Oh you like using your floor for a peddle car track during the day, that`s cool, I tend to play 70`s hard rock, UFO, AC/DC that sort of thing around 8 or 9 at night, hope you don`t mind?"

Might have been a little harsh on the neighbours on either side of us though, no?  Solutions that might be practical in a semi detached house rarely work for folk in flats. 

Fair point, but I don`t mean blasting music until the police knock on your door, I just mean slightly higher level than "very considerate", until they get the hint, speakers under their floor are going to impact the race track owners more than neighbours to the side?

Theleak250

ThisIsWeird said:

Why haven't you called your LegProt? We wouldn't have gone beyond page one

Even the legal advice page advises to try to resolve the issue locally. I really want to try that. Although I haven't heard from him this week thus far, he said he will get back to me this week. I will be calling them on Monday afternoon if I don't hear from him.