How do I approach these issues?

Theleak250

gm0 said:

Leasehold - If there is a rule on no hard floors must be carpeted.  You can press the freehold ma to push the other lessee for this to be followed. If there is a rule on no dogs same. 

Occasional minor clicking/dripping noises can be thermal pipe expansion and dry as a bone.  An actual leak is more likely to be regular albeit slow if no water visible and all the time.   Sadly inadequately secured pipework is very common indeed.  And *nobody* lifts expensive floors to dig it all up and do it again for that.  Heating and cooling causes a noise easily mistaken for a drip.

Complaints of this sort will result in a stiff letter from the managing agent to the leaseholder (landlord of the tenant if rented) regarding the issue.  This addresses the need to take action by the freeholder.  So the freeholder is not then negligent in their duty to you as the complaining lessee.  And then "nothing".    If you complain again - another letter - and so on.

In reality - there is no *proportionate remedy* or way for the freeholder to provide an incentive for action if the other lessee doesn't want to play ball.  Nothing in between "a letter saying the lease says this - do or don't do X" please comply / get your rental tenant to comply or change them out.

Clearly a small studio flat is not a great setting for multiple hounds.  But urban housing costs and inflation being what they are - people rent what they can find and afford.

For the other leaseholder - if a remedy is impossible (took tenant with dogs still in fixed term can't section 21. Up to date on rent).  Or just difficult or costly fittings retrofit - this sort of too difficult issue can be ignored happily for months or years.

The next step is "court action for forfeiture of the lease".  Freehold agents are reluctant to incur the costs of even starting this process.  So it's polite letter. Rude letter.  Letter before action. etc. Wait for people to move on.  Reset. Start again.

Actual legal action if it gets to that (after a long while and several iterations) there will be multiple trips to court if the lessee at any point says oh sorry my bad - your honour I will address the breach - action stayed - and finds a reason not to which drags on and still doesn't fix it.  And then freeholder queues up for court again - months later when it is clear cut the promise was a lie. It takes a *lot* of work to get to the audit trail for an actual forefeiture of a leasehold lease.  Or for a penalty to be imposed for lying to the court.  Which is arguably as it should be.  But the state of the court system makes this torture as the only mechanism to apply pressure.

At the rental tenant end - nobody is going to get rid of what they view as a family member (dog).  And if they were told by a letting agent that it's fine to bring the dog (or just not told it wasn't) at every stage of finding, screening, renting, depositing etc. They won't feel emotionally that your lease or their landlord's lease is *their* problem to solve.  Or indeed legally - depending on their tenancy agreement.  Hardly anybody downloads LR records to check what agents are lying about when renting.  It's not a sub-lease flowed down. Their contract is the tenancy with the landlord.  If it conflicts with the lease.  That's the freeholder/leaseholder's beef - if they are not causing a statutory nuisance (high bar).

In extremis - environmental health and "statutory nuisance" laws do apply to residential settings.  But normal living noises in a house not converted with adequate floor to floor soundproofing generally isn't in their remit.  Nor should it be.  And they will react accordingly i.e. ignore or humour complaints and not take action for "normal" noise.  Kid noise is basically exempt.  Dogs which rise early and bark when disturbed or need an overnight bathroom break is normal.

Dogs *left alone* barking all day - can become a formal "nuisance" as can running businesses 24x7 where you should not be doing so. 

Testing whether flats meet building regulations for noise - can be done.  And occasionally with new developments where it is obvious this is woefully deficient at construction.  Claims, testing and retrofit (to get over the bar - not necessarily to get to a really good standard) then happens.  Out of warranty - most lessees are not keen to start a costly to them process which lifts all floor coverings, opens up walls and destroys all decor and most likely requires moving out (or moving out tenants)

Thank you for your post. I would state this would result in a lot of stress, money being spent and generally being miserable. It would require more effort and energy than the issues themselves. So I guess I will just have to live with it for now, because I am not prepared to go through the stress of the above. The tenant may go in April as that is going to be a year, or she might stay another five years! I am going to pursue the leak again, because that is one thing I cannot ignore. There is a large stain forming in the wall. And I can hardly sell the place in (even if it's not for another five years) with a working leak. 

I would add thus far the landlord or the tenant I do not believe have done anything delibrarte and the dogs do not bark endlessly all day. It's just the impact on sleeping which is the main issue as I either cannot sleep when I wish to or get woken up early. The dogs barking will also be heard by the tenant next to her. Who I know for a fact is the type who will kick off, so perhaps the problem will be address without my input. But thank you again, let my situation be a lesson for anyone looking to buy a flat, especially one with wooden floors. I would also add that the tenet before this one (who was a large guy, a wife and a small child) made hardly any noise. Neither have I ever had the issue in previous flats. I hope she goes soon.

Jude57

Theleak250 said:

Murphybear said:

Maahes said:

A lot of what you describe is simply apartment living. You need to separate what you can address and what you can't. You can't dictate when people get up in the morning and if they have permission to keep a dog you can't do anything about that either. All dogs bark but there's difference between a dog barking for a short time and a dog barking incessantly. My dog woke me up at 5:30 this morning as she wanted to go out but now she's asleep. Similarly you can't dictate what toys an owner gives their pets.

If the lease agreement states that carpets must be used then go to the management company about that. If a leak damages your property make a claim on your insurance but ultimately you may have to accept that your neighbours are noisy people and there isn't much you're going to be able to do about that. I doubt the landlord is going to entertain replacing all the flooring in the property.

My daughter lived for years under a family who sounded like they had a shire horse living with them, it's not pleasant and ultimately they moved as the landlord wouldn't address it.

We lived in a flat that was part of a house conversion.  The girl in the flat above started practising her tap dancing.  . Fortunately a quick word in her ear and she apologised, gave us a bottle of wine and found somewhere else to practise.  

My experience over the years has been that converted flats are generally much noisier than purpose built.  I lived in a small ex council block in London and I could never hear anything from the people above.  

Useful thing to consider for anyone buying a flat 

I would say to anyone buying a flat, stay away from wooden floors. Concrete only.

Nope. I live in a 1960's concrete tower block and the floors between storeys are reinforced concrete. It's a perfect sound conductor and uncarpeted concrete floors are horrendous for anyone living beneath them because if the neighbours above drop a teaspoon it sounds like a fridge being dropped from 10 feet. Children running up and down the hallway sound like herds of stampeding elephants and music played at anything over 'whisper' volume is transmitted through walls and floors as though through paper. The only way to live here is by being a considerate neighbour, not doing your washing at midnight, turning music off by midnight, having carpets with good quality underlay and curtains to help absorb the sound, not slamming doors etc. Unfortunately, modern living where people don't want (or can't afford) good carpeting but have cheap, poorly laid laminate flooring and blinds instead of curtains means that the everyday sounds that shouldn't be a problem, become unbearable. It's supposed to be a condition of tenancies here that such flooring is not allowed but, realistically, there's nothing the Housing Association can do once people put it down.

I'm unfortunately currently experiencing the effects of inconsiderate neighbours involving parties that last days without a break, constant noise from video games and much more and while my Housing Association are being really proactive, I've no guarantee that it will ever be fully resolved. At least I do have their support which is something. My hope is to be able to move from here in the next year or so which, after 17 years, wouldn't have been my ideal choice but, as my Antisocial Behaviour Team Officer said, people are now being housed in these flats who would previously never have been allocated them, i.e. young, single, unemployed people and it's not likely to improve. I really feel for OP because as an owner, there's so little support available.

Theleak250

Jude57 said:

Theleak250 said:

Murphybear said:

Maahes said:

A lot of what you describe is simply apartment living. You need to separate what you can address and what you can't. You can't dictate when people get up in the morning and if they have permission to keep a dog you can't do anything about that either. All dogs bark but there's difference between a dog barking for a short time and a dog barking incessantly. My dog woke me up at 5:30 this morning as she wanted to go out but now she's asleep. Similarly you can't dictate what toys an owner gives their pets.

If the lease agreement states that carpets must be used then go to the management company about that. If a leak damages your property make a claim on your insurance but ultimately you may have to accept that your neighbours are noisy people and there isn't much you're going to be able to do about that. I doubt the landlord is going to entertain replacing all the flooring in the property.

My daughter lived for years under a family who sounded like they had a shire horse living with them, it's not pleasant and ultimately they moved as the landlord wouldn't address it.

We lived in a flat that was part of a house conversion.  The girl in the flat above started practising her tap dancing.  . Fortunately a quick word in her ear and she apologised, gave us a bottle of wine and found somewhere else to practise.  

My experience over the years has been that converted flats are generally much noisier than purpose built.  I lived in a small ex council block in London and I could never hear anything from the people above.  

Useful thing to consider for anyone buying a flat 

I would say to anyone buying a flat, stay away from wooden floors. Concrete only.

Nope. I live in a 1960's concrete tower block and the floors between storeys are reinforced concrete. It's a perfect sound conductor and uncarpeted concrete floors are horrendous for anyone living beneath them because if the neighbours above drop a teaspoon it sounds like a fridge being dropped from 10 feet. Children running up and down the hallway sound like herds of stampeding elephants and music played at anything over 'whisper' volume is transmitted through walls and floors as though through paper. The only way to live here is by being a considerate neighbour, not doing your washing at midnight, turning music off by midnight, having carpets with good quality underlay and curtains to help absorb the sound, not slamming doors etc. Unfortunately, modern living where people don't want (or can't afford) good carpeting but have cheap, poorly laid laminate flooring and blinds instead of curtains means that the everyday sounds that shouldn't be a problem, become unbearable. It's supposed to be a condition of tenancies here that such flooring is not allowed but, realistically, there's nothing the Housing Association can do once people put it down.

I'm unfortunately currently experiencing the effects of inconsiderate neighbours involving parties that last days without a break, constant noise from video games and much more and while my Housing Association are being really proactive, I've no guarantee that it will ever be fully resolved. At least I do have their support which is something. My hope is to be able to move from here in the next year or so which, after 17 years, wouldn't have been my ideal choice but, as my Antisocial Behaviour Team Officer said, people are now being housed in these flats who would previously never have been allocated them, i.e. young, single, unemployed people and it's not likely to improve. I really feel for OP because as an owner, there's so little support available.

Oh that’s terrible. I hope you move out. I must have been lucky in the past, as all my previous flats were concrete and I hardly heard them. In my current place with wood you can hear every footstep, draw closing, phone vibrating (I assume when they leave it on the floor).

if I had parties above and I owned, I’d go and live with a relative and either put the place up for sale, or rent another place as in a room! Selling at a loss is a terrible outcome. 

eddddy

Theleak250 said:

i understand however the management company is terrible so i am a bit restricted in that regard. I couldn’t even get them to send a letter about the leak as they claimed they didn’t have the landlords details. Eventually I found them another way. 

That excuse by the management company is nonsense.

The management company will 100% definitely have an address for serving notices on the upstairs leaseholder.

If the upstairs leaseholder hasn't told the management company otherwise, the address for serving notices will be the upstairs flat itself.

If notices are sent to the upstairs flat, and the upstairs leaseholder doesn't have arrangements to have the notices forwarded - the upstairs leaseholder will get into deeper and deeper trouble.


(As an aside, does the Management Company send out Ground Rent Bills and Service Charge Bills? If so, they will have an address for the upstairs leaseholder.)


So assuming you have a typical lease...

• you can write to the Management Company saying that the upstairs leaseholder is breaching their lease, and instructing them to take enforcement action.

• you might have to agree to cover the Management Company's costs of sending letters etc, if it turns out you are wrong - and the upstairs neighbour isn't breaching their lease

Theleak250

I wanted to update this thread and seek further advice. I contacted the owner of the property above again to report the leak was still occurring. He advised he would get another plumber out. This plumber reported back that the bathroom in the flat above is of bad construction and advised the leak was caused by bad sealant between the wall and bath, and a bad shower door which added to the issue. (the owner sent my the plumbers report stating this) Water was running down the wall and this was the cause. He claimed no leak was present under the bath or toilet. The plumber came back and replaced the shower door and sealant. I heard nothing from the owner and had to chase, and he tells me works were completed.

About a week went by and sure enough I can still hear the water dripping. I felt the wall and it is moist from fresh water. I contacted the owner again and he advised me he doesn't know what to do and what do I suggest as he has taken advice from two plumbers and followed their advice. 

I would suggest if the first plumber missed the dodgy sealant and dodgy shower door, their advice is not worth much, the second plumber, I would suggest they were not given full access. I believe the leak is within a covered coving where the pipes are covered. He has allegedly had plumbers out on three occasions and it started almost a year ago. Can anyone suggest how I should approach this now?

I thought perhaps of hiring a plumber myself and asking him to go into the property and give his opinion, but I don't want to open myself up to liability. Perhaps I could get a tradesman to confirm my wall is wet still and then report his back to him so there is no question of the leak still being present?

Thank you

EssexHebridean

Theleak250 said:

LMurphybear said:

Maahes said:

A lot of what you describe is simply apartment living. You need to separate what you can address and what you can't. You can't dictate when people get up in the morning and if they have permission to keep a dog you can't do anything about that either. All dogs bark but there's difference between a dog barking for a short time and a dog barking incessantly. My dog woke me up at 5:30 this morning as she wanted to go out but now she's asleep. Similarly you can't dictate what toys an owner gives their pets.

If the lease agreement states that carpets must be used then go to the management company about that. If a leak damages your property make a claim on your insurance but ultimately you may have to accept that your neighbours are noisy people and there isn't much you're going to be able to do about that. I doubt the landlord is going to entertain replacing all the flooring in the property.

My daughter lived for years under a family who sounded like they had a shire horse living with them, it's not pleasant and ultimately they moved as the landlord wouldn't address it.

We lived in a flat that was part of a house conversion.  The girl in the flat above started practising her tap dancing.  . Fortunately a quick word in her ear and she apologised, gave us a bottle of wine and found somewhere else to practise.  

My experience over the years has been that converted flats are generally much noisier than purpose built.  I lived in a small ex council block in London and I could never hear anything from the people above.  

Useful thing to consider for anyone buying a flat 

I would say to anyone buying a flat, stay away from wooden floors. Concrete only.

Trust me, when the flat upstairs to you has all its carpets ripped out and replaced with cheap laminate, you still hear all the noise even if the floor is concrete! I’d have happily swapped out a barking dog for the toddler riding a peddle car from one end of the flat to the other repeatedly for hours on end! 😆

ThisIsWeird

Hi The leak.
Did this plumber (in fact, all of them) check the location and type of damage caused within your flat? Were the drips audible at the time?
Do you have Legal Protection included in your Contents insurance? If so, call them up for advice and guidance - it's free, and that's what it's for.
Even if you don't have LP, I'd still contact your insurance company to advise them that ongoing damage is being caused to your property. First write down a brief, but concise, chronological outline of what has happened so far - the date of first leak, ideally photos from then, when you contacted the occupant, what the first plumber reported, when you contacted the flat's owner, when you contacted the Freeholder/ManCo etc etc. 
In cases like this, when one flat causes largely cosmetic damage to another through an unanticipated leak, the 'victim' flat usually needs to cover their own repairs, using their Contents insurance if needed. Seems a bit unfair, but hey. However, if the owner/occupants of the leaking flat were 'negligent' - Ie can be deemed to have caused, contributed to, or failed to address the leak when informed, then they can (should) become liable. You are surely at that stage now?
So, get guidance from your insurance co, and Def through your LP if you have it (and if you don't, then add it for the future).
Make sure you have a paper/comms trail of contact you have made to all parties. Make sure you capture all the evidence of the damage being caused at each stage.

This looks as tho' it's in the 'escalating' stage where 'negligence' can now be inferred; they are provably aware of the ongoing issue, but have repeatedly failed to address it. They therefore should be put in the position of being forced to address it, possibly by something like a court order, and also assume all liability.

Really, your Man Co or building Freeholder should be doing this - they have the power. Whether this means you can pass this 'negligence' on to them if they fail to act, I don't know, but I think the word 'negligent' should be brought into play, 'due to a failure to act'.
LegProt would have had a handle on this - could you double-check whether you have this?
Some Googling suggests that the Man Co/Freeholder should be acting on this. Eg: https://www.redbrickpm.co.uk/blog/water-damage-from-flat-above-who-is-liable/
Perhaps - in writing - suggest that, as they have both the power and obligation to sort such issues, you will consider them negligent if they fail to do so? (But take advice from the more informed).
In essence, cover yourself - a full, evidenced, paper-trail of what you gave done, and who you have informed.

Make sure you can evidence the whole situation.

But, I don't know the way forward. I understand, tho', that a Leaseholder can oblige a Freeholder to act on the terms in their lease.

Hmm - this suggests they can, but only if this is mentioned in the terms of the lease, and also that the leaseholder needs to foot the legal bill! https://www.lease-advice.org/faq/how-can-a-leaseholder-enforce-the-covenants-in-the-lease-against-another-leaseholder/

So - with further advice - passing the 'negligence' responsibility on to the FH, if they don't act, may be the way forward. Read your deeds carefully - does it say anything about who can enforce the terms of the lease? It might say that other leaseholders can, or it might say to report breaches to the FH. And, I guess, it might say neither.

LegProt - have you checked? If you don't have it, call your insurance co - they have an interest in this, as they may have to foot the repair bill inside your flat - the longer you leave it, the greater the damage. You will likely now be at the stage of some replastering being required, whereas a simple repaint would almost certainly have sorted the issue before now. They would also appreciate knowing if they could counter with a 'negligence' claim against either of the other parties.

And, no, I personally would not employ my own plumber to investigate this. Almost certainly this will just muddy the waters. And, if they want to rip up some flooring, for example, who is going to pay for this?! And if they find nothing...?! You need to find out who is now 'liable' and 'negligent' by failing to act. Surely either the flat's owner, or the FH.

CALL YOUR INSURANCE CO!

And, if you bump into that flat's neighbour, ask if they are disturbed by the dog or any other noise - tho' it would be unusual for footsteps noise to travel sideways. If that LH is also disturbed or woken by the dog, then - perhaps when the leak issue is resolved - you both submit complaints?
Bottom line - the FH can enforce the terms of the lease, and it would be a very foolish LHer to not respond correctly, as they could ultimately forfeit their lease. The Q is - and I don't know the answer - would the FH be 'negligent' in this leak case if they fail to act to enforce?

ThisIsWeird

Theleak250 said:

I would suggest if the first plumber missed the dodgy sealant and dodgy shower door, their advice is not worth much, the second plumber, I would suggest they were not given full access. I believe the leak is within a covered coving where the pipes are covered.

"I believe the leak is within a covered coving where the pipes are covered."

What do you mean by 'covered coving'? Is this within the upstairs flat? You are referring to pipes that are 'boxed-in', and this is where - running along the skirting?

The drips you hear - are they steady and constant?

Theleak250

ThisIsWeird said:

Hi The leak.
Did this plumber (in fact, all of them) check the location and type of damage caused within your flat? Were the drips audible at the time?
Do you have Legal Protection included in your Contents insurance? If so, call them up for advice and guidance - it's free, and that's what it's for.
Even if you don't have LP, I'd still contact your insurance company to advise them that ongoing damage is being caused to your property. First write down a brief, but concise, chronological outline of what has happened so far - the date of first leak, ideally photos from then, when you contacted the occupant, what the first plumber reported, when you contacted the flat's owner, when you contacted the Freeholder/ManCo etc etc. 
In cases like this, when one flat causes largely cosmetic damage to another through an unanticipated leak, the 'victim' flat usually needs to cover their own repairs, using their Contents insurance if needed. Seems a bit unfair, but hey. However, if the owner/occupants of the leaking flat were 'negligent' - Ie can be deemed to have caused, contributed to, or failed to address the leak when informed, then they can (should) become liable. You are surely at that stage now?
So, get guidance from your insurance co, and Def through your LP if you have it (and if you don't, then add it for the future).
Make sure you have a paper/comms trail of contact you have made to all parties. Make sure you capture all the evidence of the damage being caused at each stage.

This looks as tho' it's in the 'escalating' stage where 'negligence' can now be inferred; they are provably aware of the ongoing issue, but have repeatedly failed to address it. They therefore should be put in the position of being forced to address it, possibly by something like a court order, and also assume all liability.

Really, your Man Co or building Freeholder should be doing this - they have the power. Whether this means you can pass this 'negligence' on to them if they fail to act, I don't know, but I think the word 'negligent' should be brought into play, 'due to a failure to act'.
LegProt would have had a handle on this - could you double-check whether you have this?
Some Googling suggests that the Man Co/Freeholder should be acting on this. Eg: https://www.redbrickpm.co.uk/blog/water-damage-from-flat-above-who-is-liable/
Perhaps - in writing - suggest that, as they have both the power and obligation to sort such issues, you will consider them negligent if they fail to do so? (But take advice from the more informed).
In essence, cover yourself - a full, evidenced, paper-trail of what you gave done, and who you have informed.

Make sure you can evidence the whole situation.

But, I don't know the way forward. I understand, tho', that a Leaseholder can oblige a Freeholder to act on the terms in their lease.

Hmm - this suggests they can, but only if this is mentioned in the terms of the lease, and also that the leaseholder needs to foot the legal bill! https://www.lease-advice.org/faq/how-can-a-leaseholder-enforce-the-covenants-in-the-lease-against-another-leaseholder/

So - with further advice - passing the 'negligence' responsibility on to the FH, if they don't act, may be the way forward. Read your deeds carefully - does it say anything about who can enforce the terms of the lease? It might say that other leaseholders can, or it might say to report breaches to the FH. And, I guess, it might say neither.

LegProt - have you checked? If you don't have it, call your insurance co - they have an interest in this, as they may have to foot the repair bill inside your flat - the longer you leave it, the greater the damage. You will likely now be at the stage of some replastering being required, whereas a simple repaint would almost certainly have sorted the issue before now. They would also appreciate knowing if they could counter with a 'negligence' claim against either of the other parties.

And, no, I personally would not employ my own plumber to investigate this. Almost certainly this will just muddy the waters. And, if they want to rip up some flooring, for example, who is going to pay for this?! And if they find nothing...?! You need to find out who is now 'liable' and 'negligent' by failing to act. Surely either the flat's owner, or the FH.

CALL YOUR INSURANCE CO!

And, if you bump into that flat's neighbour, ask if they are disturbed by the dog or any other noise - tho' it would be unusual for footsteps noise to travel sideways. If that LH is also disturbed or woken by the dog, then - perhaps when the leak issue is resolved - you both submit complaints?
Bottom line - the FH can enforce the terms of the lease, and it would be a very foolish LHer to not respond correctly, as they could ultimately forfeit their lease. The Q is - and I don't know the answer - would the FH be 'negligent' in this leak case if they fail to act to enforce?

Yes the plumber briefly checked to confirm the wall was damp and the location of it.

I do have legal protection within the contents insurance.

I am happy to cover the expenses of the repair. If it could be classed as negligent I don't know.

I can give them a call if required, I see that as a last resort. 

Theleak250

ThisIsWeird said:

Theleak250 said:

I would suggest if the first plumber missed the dodgy sealant and dodgy shower door, their advice is not worth much, the second plumber, I would suggest they were not given full access. I believe the leak is within a covered coving where the pipes are covered.

"I believe the leak is within a covered coving where the pipes are covered."

What do you mean by 'covered coving'? Is this within the upstairs flat? You are referring to pipes that are 'boxed-in', and this is where - running along the skirting?

The drips you hear - are they steady and constant?

Yes basically the pipes from the bath, sink and toilet are within a cover and this is tiled in. These are along the back of the bathroom in the flat above. This backs onto my wardrobe directly under it on the very edge of the room.

The drips are not steady or consistent. They are intermittent.