PCN in residential car park (Do I have a leg to stand on!?)

KoalaMSEF

marina_madness said:

Thanks KoalaMSEF, that really helps. The parking spots are allocated to each flat, so my mum will be okay, but I do fall foul over the signage. I don't have the time for a lengthy appeal, (nor do I want to risk a CCJ), if it is pretty clear cut as you say. That was the whole point of checking here first. 

To Coupon-mad and fisherjim - could your try to remember you were newbies once. How was I to know others would be so triggered by a common phrase? And there are much friendlier ways of saying things than, "Your two points of appeal above are quite ridiculous as is your post title!" Maybe thinking how Martin himself would talk to others would be a good guide. 

It's hard to say whether your case is a 'clear cut' or not, depending on your angle (I tend to look at it from the lease perspective in my own residential/leasehold case).

It is useful to be aware that there is a lot of expert/tacit/specialist knowledge involved in private parking tickets. 

There are a lot of technical nuances in these cases, e.g., no keeper liability, inadequate signs etc etc., in which coupon-mad, fisherjim, and others can give you plenty of advice.

Re appeal, my personal experience is - there is next to zero chance for a IPC appeal as it is a kangaroo court, no matter how strong your claims are. This will be dragged into the designated process of all private parking disputes. However, you won't receive any CCJ if you respond to court claim letter in time. 

There is always a chance to fight for these cases due to these technical nuances.

Please do come back and check with people here shall your case unfold further. They have a wealth of knowledge and do have good intention to help people, voluntarily, with their time and energy without asking for anything back. 

fisherjim

marina_madness said:

To Coupon-mad and fisherjim - could your try to remember you were newbies once. How was I to know others would be so triggered by a common phrase? And there are much friendlier ways of saying things than, "Your two points of appeal above are quite ridiculous as is your post title!" Maybe thinking how Martin himself would talk to others would be a good guide. 

Point taken and sorry, however if you think that is unfriendly you need to be prepared for the utter rubbish that will come from the likes of debt collectors for example, empty threats but nasty threatening and bullying.

Sorry but Martin Lewis has nothing to do with these forums at all now, he sold the web site for around 87 million in 2012!

Woppy1972

fisherjim said:

marina_madness said:

To Coupon-mad and fisherjim - could your try to remember you were newbies once. How was I to know others would be so triggered by a common phrase? And there are much friendlier ways of saying things than, "Your two points of appeal above are quite ridiculous as is your post title!" Maybe thinking how Martin himself would talk to others would be a good guide. 

Point taken and sorry, however if you think that is unfriendly you need to be prepared for the utter rubbish that will come from the likes of debt collectors for example, empty threats but nasty threatening and bullying.

Sorry but Martin Lewis has nothing to do with these forums at all now, he sold the web site for around 87 million in 2012!

Try not to take it personally. All these forum members give of their time freely to assist people. I would spend some time reviewing the newbies section and learning how this all came about when clamping was outlawed and PoFA was introduced. It's a fascinating subject and helps you help others when you learn about it.

if you just post with a question without doing any research here first you are likely to get a shortish response. It will seem hard at first but you will become an expert in no time at all. Hopefully legislation will soon be passed to regulate this industry properly.

marina_madness

Thanks for the reply. It makes sense about the title thread, is there a way to suggest to the site admin that a note about this is added to the top of the page. Newbies like me won't know this, and I hopefully most people on here are here only once. 

Regarding the advice not to pay, can someone explain what my grounds are? I have read through the main MSE article on this and most of the the advice seems to be when the parking companies have made a legal mistake in signage or times etc. Here, based on the sign I attached above and the fact I was parked outside of an allocated bay, it seems to an inexperienced person like myself that I am liable. If that is not the case legally, please can someone explain that rather than just saying don't pay. 

Many thanks

Coupon-mad

1. Link Parking use Gladstones, whose court claims are easy to defend and often get struck out by the court.

2. You are a leasehold owner and that will include easements and rights of way, including by vehicle. You do need to read your lease now.

3. Case law is on your side. e.g. the Appeal case of Jopson v Home Guard and the case of Link v Parkinson, and this new Court of Appeal authority:
https://www.landmarkchambers.co.uk/news-and-cases/court-of-appeal-delivers-important-judgment-in-holland-park-dispute-as-to-parking-rights

4. The £100 on the signs is in very small print which makes the contractual term arguably not prominent.  Inadequate notice.

5. Even if the case goes all the way to a hearing and you lose (almost heard of in residential cases because you have pre-existing and strong rights & easements) you'd only pay a typical total of £212 instead of the £100 PCN. Not exactly a gamble, and it almost never happens.

6. We haven't seen a Link Parking court claim in years. Keep your address updated with Link if you move, but just ignore them.

7. The MSE article is old and overdue an update. Do not read it.


P.S. You'd have been better parked in another bay, or on the approach road where everyone else routinely parks.

marina_madness

Thanks so much for the last response, really clear and helpful. 

What should I do next? The MSE article which is now out of date has different instructions and timings for doing things, and/or indeed doing nothing. I can see your signature says 'Don't pay but don't ignore', so any advice on my next steps would be much appreciated. My first 'deadline' will be 10th Jan 2025 as this will be the end of the 14 day reduced (cough!) fine date. 

KoalaMSEF

There are a couple of things you can do.

1. Read the newbie thread on the forum. It will give you enough information about how the private parking companies run their 'business.' (So, it is not a fine but an invoice for an alleged commercial contract for your parking, because a fine can only be issued by an authority, which private parking companies are not). See coupon-mad the signature if you couldn't locate the post. 

2. Please find your lease, read it, and find everything about parking, easement etc etc. You will need them. 

3. You can also search the forum with the keywords such as 'own space', 'residential', 'residential parking' to see other people's experience and how they managed it. 

Re your current PCN, 'deadline' etc, you can find the standard advice in the same newbie thread mentioned above. There are a few stages for private parking cases: notice to keeper, appeal to the parking company and IAS in your case (always rejected esp. with IAS), more demand letters, letters from debt collectors, and finally, letters from small claim court. This process may stop at any point due to other interventions, such as complaint to the landowner/freeholder/landlord who step in and force the parking company to cancel the tickets, or the parking company forgets (this is not as good as it sounds because they can still pursue within 6 years, so you will notify them every time you move houses to prevent the possibility that they send the court paper to the wrong address to chance a CCJ due to the failure to respond to the COURT on time). If no successful interventions, the only place to get this sorted is the court in front of a judge. 

Common sense does not work. Technical nuances and knowhow do. Please get familiar with your lease. 

Finally, people park half on the pavement near the access roads to avoid tickets like the one you have received in many blocks with private parking enforcement. It happens all the time in our block. It is a tricky situation because people complain when their bays are occupied by others but private parking companies are not interested in managing parking but cashing in regardless of common sense. 

Hope it helps. 

Iceweasel

Beware parking on the pavement.
It's already illegal in London and all of Scotland.
Other regions/countries/countries are due to follow suit.

Coupon-mad

Iceweasel said:

Beware parking on the pavement.
It's already illegal in London and all of Scotland.
Other regions/countries/countries are due to follow suit.

Not on private land. This is a discussion about a private road and private land spaces.

@marina_madness

please kindly edit your thread title. 

Iceweasel

The access roads to the car park in this thread may or may not be on private land.

Parking on pavements is quite inconsiderate at any time for wheelchair users and folks with kids in buggies/prams.