Loft conversion not included in lease

Emmia

fluffy_kittens2024 said:

Long story short. Currently selling my leasehold flat (first bedroom flat in a terraced house with a loft conversion above that). Buyer's solicitors are saying that the loft conversion (build by the previous sellers) isn't included in the lease.

I have the previous seller's documents such as planning permissions, party wall act, permission from landlord etc etc for the conversion.

I guess my question is, why did my solicitor not flag this when I bought the property (I am using the same solicitor and have raised this) and does anyone else have experience of this and who can shed their light? Do any of you foresee any issue with obtaining a deed of variation? There will be legal costs of course, will there also be costs in terms of the loft itself? Will I essentially be "buying" the loft space? Thank you.

Do you mean "freeholder" permission? 

Landlord permission could imply that you're renting off someone who is the leaseholder, who "owns" the lease on the flat, with the freeholder "owning" the land on which the property is built... If that's the case, why are you selling something you don't own?

If you're the "leaseholder" does your lease only cover the original flat, and not the converted space. Was the lease updated when the permissions were given to show the updated demised space? This may have led to changes in ground rent, lease length, service charges... The lack of an updated lease might be the problem.

fluffy_kittens2024

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Do you mean "freeholder" permission? 

Landlord permission could imply that you're renting off someone who is the leaseholder, who "owns" the lease on the flat, with the freeholder "owning" the land on which the property is built... If that's the case, why are you selling something you don't own?

If you're the "leaseholder" does your lease only cover the original flat, and not the converted space. Was the lease updated when the permissions were given to show the updated demised space? This may have led to changes in ground rent, lease length, service charges... The lack of an updated lease might be the problem.

Do you mean "freeholder" permission? 

Landlord permission could imply that you're renting off someone who is the leaseholder, who "owns" the lease on the flat, with the freeholder "owning" the land on which the property is built... If that's the case, why are you selling something you don't own?

If you're the "leaseholder" does your lease only cover the original flat, and not the converted space. Was the lease updated when the permissions were given to show the updated demised space? This may have led to changes in ground rent, lease length, service charges... The lack of an updated lease might be the problem.

Im using landlord/freeholder interchangeably. I’m not attempting to sell something I don’t own knowingly. It has only been bought to my attention that the loft isn’t included in part of the lease now I have come to sell. The previous sellers undertook the loft conversion and it didn’t come up when I was buying by my solicitors - a fact I am raising with them since I am using the same solicitors as back then. They got landlord consent (license for alterations) but apparently not a deed of variation. 

fluffy_kittens2024

Emmia said:

swingaloo said:

I have a friend in a similar situation. She lives in a flat, its a house divided so she has the upstairs. She had the loft converted with planning permission and permission from the council as its an ex council property. 

She has had 4 buyers and each time she has ad the sale fall through. Even though the conversion was done with the relevant permissions she does not own the loft space and the freeholder will not sell. 

She didn't get all the relevant permissions though. She should have sought freeholder consent and potentially purchased the space / had it added to her lease before starting any work. 

Right now, with the work done, and her wanting to sell, the freeholder has her over a barrel - they could also require her to return the converted space to it's original condition (i e. rip it all out) at her cost.

It wasn’t me who undertook the work, it was the previous sellers. So my question to my solicitors now is why they didn’t raise this when the flat was purchased by myself (I’m using the same solicitor). 

EssexHebridean

How long ago did you purchase? If 6 years or less ago then the solicitor still has the file, in which case you may need to raise a formal complaint .  If more than that it’s going to be more challenging for anyone to piece things together, however the firm will obviously know that they acted, and it’s perfectly possible that they will decide to follow things through from anything that they do still have (electronic file etc) rather than risk you going to the SRA about it. 

Re the question about indemnity insurance - it almost certainly wouldn’t be possible to get it as the freeholder clearly already knows about the problem! 

fluffy_kittens2024

EssexHebridean said:

How long ago did you purchase? If 6 years or less ago then the solicitor still has the file, in which case you may need to raise a formal complaint .  If more than that it’s going to be more challenging for anyone to piece things together, however the firm will obviously know that they acted, and it’s perfectly possible that they will decide to follow things through from anything that they do still have (electronic file etc) rather than risk you going to the SRA about it. 

Re the question about indemnity insurance - it almost certainly wouldn’t be possible to get it as the freeholder clearly already knows about the problem! 

June 2018 unfortunately, so they likely have just gotten rid of the files. Understood on the insurance, thanks for clarifying. 

silvercar

Emmia said:

fluffy_kittens2024 said:

swingaloo said:

I have a friend in a similar situation. She lives in a flat, its a house divided so she has the upstairs. She had the loft converted with planning permission and permission from the council as its an ex council property. 

She has had 4 buyers and each time she has ad the sale fall through. Even though the conversion was done with the relevant permissions she does not own the loft space and the freeholder will not sell. 

Gosh that doesn’t sound good 😞 I wonder if it’s something indemnity insurance can cover if that’s the case 

Indemnity insurance for building in something you don't fundamentally "own"?! I doubt it.

Not impossible. People often take out indemnity insurance for an enclosed part of ‘their’ garden that they don’t own, according to the deeds. In fact, a lot of mortgage lenders would be happy with an indemnity in this situation. I looked into it once when a property had a front extension covering a porch that was now the main entrance to the property and turned out not to be on the deeds. It was only that the actual entrance wasn’t on the deeds that was an issue.

user1977

fluffy_kittens2024 said:

EssexHebridean said:

How long ago did you purchase? If 6 years or less ago then the solicitor still has the file, in which case you may need to raise a formal complaint .  If more than that it’s going to be more challenging for anyone to piece things together, however the firm will obviously know that they acted, and it’s perfectly possible that they will decide to follow things through from anything that they do still have (electronic file etc) rather than risk you going to the SRA about it. 

Re the question about indemnity insurance - it almost certainly wouldn’t be possible to get it as the freeholder clearly already knows about the problem! 

June 2018 unfortunately, so they likely have just gotten rid of the files. Understood on the insurance, thanks for clarifying. 

I wouldn’t assume firms are in a rush these days to dispose of files when they’re generally just occupying a bit of disk space rather than a crate of papers. I can generally access files from 2008, never mind 2018.

Besides, it sounds like a slam dunk case if they knew about the loft conversion. Not one of those “how could the solicitor have known” examples we sometimes get here.

fluffy_kittens2024

user1977 said:

fluffy_kittens2024 said:

EssexHebridean said:

How long ago did you purchase? If 6 years or less ago then the solicitor still has the file, in which case you may need to raise a formal complaint .  If more than that it’s going to be more challenging for anyone to piece things together, however the firm will obviously know that they acted, and it’s perfectly possible that they will decide to follow things through from anything that they do still have (electronic file etc) rather than risk you going to the SRA about it. 

Re the question about indemnity insurance - it almost certainly wouldn’t be possible to get it as the freeholder clearly already knows about the problem! 

June 2018 unfortunately, so they likely have just gotten rid of the files. Understood on the insurance, thanks for clarifying. 

I wouldn’t assume firms are in a rush these days to dispose of files when they’re generally just occupying a bit of disk space rather than a crate of papers. I can generally access files from 2008, never mind 2018.

Besides, it sounds like a slam dunk case if they knew about the loft conversion. Not one of those “how could the solicitor have known” examples we sometimes get here.

Yeah. I did raise this with them but only yesterday when they brought this up themselves so I won’t expect a reply for a few days over Xmas now. But will see what they say. 

I actually have the email addresses of the previous sellers as we kept in touch for a time over a separate matter. I’m tempted to email and clarify things with them… 

Schwarzwald

fluffy_kittens2024 said:

Long story short. Currently selling my leasehold flat (first bedroom flat in a terraced house with a loft conversion above that). Buyer's solicitors are saying that the loft conversion (build by the previous sellers) isn't included in the lease.

I have the previous seller's documents such as planning permissions, party wall act, permission from landlord etc etc for the conversion.

I guess my question is, why did my solicitor not flag this when I bought the property (I am using the same solicitor and have raised this) and does anyone else have experience of this and who can shed their light? Do any of you foresee any issue with obtaining a deed of variation? There will be legal costs of course, will there also be costs in terms of the loft itself? Will I essentially be "buying" the loft space? Thank you.

Have you asked yourself the question too why you didnt rwalize it when looking at the floorplan / lease plan included in the lease? Probably you shld have expected to see such loft conversion there, no?

fluffy_kittens2024

Schwarzwald said:

fluffy_kittens2024 said:

Long story short. Currently selling my leasehold flat (first bedroom flat in a terraced house with a loft conversion above that). Buyer's solicitors are saying that the loft conversion (build by the previous sellers) isn't included in the lease.

I have the previous seller's documents such as planning permissions, party wall act, permission from landlord etc etc for the conversion.

I guess my question is, why did my solicitor not flag this when I bought the property (I am using the same solicitor and have raised this) and does anyone else have experience of this and who can shed their light? Do any of you foresee any issue with obtaining a deed of variation? There will be legal costs of course, will there also be costs in terms of the loft itself? Will I essentially be "buying" the loft space? Thank you.

Have you asked yourself the question too why you didnt rwalize it when looking at the floorplan / lease plan included in the lease? Probably you shld have expected to see such loft conversion there, no?

It is/was the first property I ever got. Everything was new to me (I’d only just learnt what leasehold/freehold meant and what ground rent was) and I assumed the solicitor would flag things like this since that’s what I was paying them for.