Baggage left behind

Pollycat

jimi_man said:

Pollycat said:

CelticFire said:

Situ 1 Flying from Heathrow with BA.  BA knowingly left behind the cases belonging to passengers who were transferring to that flight.  Only luggage which arrived was those who checked in directly at Heathrow. 

Situ 2. Package Holiday TUI Check in 13:00 for a 15:30 flight.  Flight delayed 2.5 hours. Getting close to 3 hr compensation time when flight took off, leaving behind all but a few cases on the trolley. 

On both occasions staff knew the baggage was left as they informed us as soon as we were airborne. On both occasions there were over 100 people affected, so it’s not a personal issue merely trying to gauge if it is widespread in the industry, or are some operators worse than others.
As to whether or not it’s part of a business model, maybe I’m more cynical than others but there are financial penalties  (including knock on flights)  which are far higher than lost baggage claims.

Was the other flight also from LHR?

How do you know this 

CelticFire said:

In a short post I didn’t go in to all the details just wanted to gauge this forum so I’ll elucidate.  We’ve travelled extensively.  Yes we have,  as some suggested split our belongings in two cases.  And yes, surprisingly enough we did arrive in plenty of time for check in. This doesn’t help however when the airline CHOOSE to leave them behind. ( both cases) 

for certain?

Could it be a ground crew issue.
AFAIK, neither BA or TUI staff load hold luggage for their flights?

What the OP describes does occasionally happen.(I can only provide information in relation to BA). In times of disruption sometimes there is a decision to be made whether to leave without all the bags but all the passengers or it may be a case of not leaving at all. It has nothing to do with how early or late one checks in. If everything is ready but the either none or half maybe of the luggage has been loaded then it’s often better just to leave and let the luggage catch up. This is a decision generally made by the commander of the aircraft , in conjunction with the airline. 

But is it an airline business plan/model?
Which is what the OP is stating - and that is the point people are disputing, not that it doesn't happen at all.

mr_stripey

In response to OP - t makes no sense that airlines would be deliberately and intentionally not loading bags onto aircraft. To what end exactly? They still have to ship the bags (at a greater cost no doubt as they will need to be delivered to individual addresses rather than unloaded at one point).

Operationally it makes no sense. Incidents and disruptions happen and by and large the system reunites bags with passengers reasonably quickly and efficiently.

jimi_man

Pollycat said:

jimi_man said:

Pollycat said:

CelticFire said:

Situ 1 Flying from Heathrow with BA.  BA knowingly left behind the cases belonging to passengers who were transferring to that flight.  Only luggage which arrived was those who checked in directly at Heathrow. 

Situ 2. Package Holiday TUI Check in 13:00 for a 15:30 flight.  Flight delayed 2.5 hours. Getting close to 3 hr compensation time when flight took off, leaving behind all but a few cases on the trolley. 

On both occasions staff knew the baggage was left as they informed us as soon as we were airborne. On both occasions there were over 100 people affected, so it’s not a personal issue merely trying to gauge if it is widespread in the industry, or are some operators worse than others.
As to whether or not it’s part of a business model, maybe I’m more cynical than others but there are financial penalties  (including knock on flights)  which are far higher than lost baggage claims.

Was the other flight also from LHR?

How do you know this 

CelticFire said:

In a short post I didn’t go in to all the details just wanted to gauge this forum so I’ll elucidate.  We’ve travelled extensively.  Yes we have,  as some suggested split our belongings in two cases.  And yes, surprisingly enough we did arrive in plenty of time for check in. This doesn’t help however when the airline CHOOSE to leave them behind. ( both cases) 

for certain?

Could it be a ground crew issue.
AFAIK, neither BA or TUI staff load hold luggage for their flights?

What the OP describes does occasionally happen.(I can only provide information in relation to BA). In times of disruption sometimes there is a decision to be made whether to leave without all the bags but all the passengers or it may be a case of not leaving at all. It has nothing to do with how early or late one checks in. If everything is ready but the either none or half maybe of the luggage has been loaded then it’s often better just to leave and let the luggage catch up. This is a decision generally made by the commander of the aircraft , in conjunction with the airline. 

But is it an airline business plan/model?
Which is what the OP is stating - and that is the point people are disputing, not that it doesn't happen at all.

Well I'm not sure exactly what you mean by business plan/model. Clearly their aim is to carry passengers and associated baggage at all times. However in times of disruption on challenging days - weather/IT/other issues - then if it's a choice between taking off with all the passengers and only three bags, or having a further delay to that service because of a missed slot or cancellation of that service, the return service and the next one to a different destination etc etc, with associated risk of running out of crew hours etc; then the most efficient method is to leave the bags behind and take the passengers. It's easier to accommodate a load of bags on another flight than it is to accommodate a load of passengers. 

So yes, it's obviously in their 'operations manual' as a decision/option to be taken in extenuating circumstances. It happens more than just a one off. Funnily enough I'm sure my wife was given that as a scenario in her initial interview day for BA so it's definitely an established thing.

Generally the crew won't let on that the bags haven't been loaded, for obvious reasons otherwise people will start getting shouty to the crew and demanding to get off etc etc, which will delay things further. BA are pretty good and quite generous in their recompense in the event of lost luggage. 

Pollycat

jimi_man said:

Pollycat said:

jimi_man said:

Pollycat said:

CelticFire said:

Situ 1 Flying from Heathrow with BA.  BA knowingly left behind the cases belonging to passengers who were transferring to that flight.  Only luggage which arrived was those who checked in directly at Heathrow. 

Situ 2. Package Holiday TUI Check in 13:00 for a 15:30 flight.  Flight delayed 2.5 hours. Getting close to 3 hr compensation time when flight took off, leaving behind all but a few cases on the trolley. 

On both occasions staff knew the baggage was left as they informed us as soon as we were airborne. On both occasions there were over 100 people affected, so it’s not a personal issue merely trying to gauge if it is widespread in the industry, or are some operators worse than others.
As to whether or not it’s part of a business model, maybe I’m more cynical than others but there are financial penalties  (including knock on flights)  which are far higher than lost baggage claims.

Was the other flight also from LHR?

How do you know this 

CelticFire said:

In a short post I didn’t go in to all the details just wanted to gauge this forum so I’ll elucidate.  We’ve travelled extensively.  Yes we have,  as some suggested split our belongings in two cases.  And yes, surprisingly enough we did arrive in plenty of time for check in. This doesn’t help however when the airline CHOOSE to leave them behind. ( both cases) 

for certain?

Could it be a ground crew issue.
AFAIK, neither BA or TUI staff load hold luggage for their flights?

What the OP describes does occasionally happen.(I can only provide information in relation to BA). In times of disruption sometimes there is a decision to be made whether to leave without all the bags but all the passengers or it may be a case of not leaving at all. It has nothing to do with how early or late one checks in. If everything is ready but the either none or half maybe of the luggage has been loaded then it’s often better just to leave and let the luggage catch up. This is a decision generally made by the commander of the aircraft , in conjunction with the airline. 

But is it an airline business plan/model?
Which is what the OP is stating - and that is the point people are disputing, not that it doesn't happen at all.

Well I'm not sure exactly what you mean by business plan/model. 

It's not my phrase.
It's the OP's
So ask them what they mean.

winkowinko

I work in baggage tracing (mainly tagless luggage trying to work out who in the world it might belong to) and know for a fact that over the summer there was a plane flying around for a week or so where the doors to the hold compartment were jammed closed.

The airline let passengers check their luggage in, knowing full well that the luggage wouldn't be loaded and only told the passengers once the plane was airborne.

Grumpy_chap

mr_stripey said:

In response to OP - t makes no sense that airlines would be deliberately and intentionally not loading bags onto aircraft. To what end exactly? They still have to ship the bags (at a greater cost no doubt as they will need to be delivered to individual addresses rather than unloaded at one point).

Operationally it makes no sense. Incidents and disruptions happen and by and large the system reunites bags with passengers reasonably quickly and efficiently.

While I don't think departure without luggage is a key plank of any airline business model, I think that comment about cost is exactly the point the OP was trying to make:

• A flight can leave late and trigger delay compensation, £200 or more per passenger.
• That flight being delayed might mean subsequent flights in the day also trigger delay compensation.
• OR, the flight can leave late but soon enough to avoid the delay compensation, but without baggage.  The cost for reuniting baggage with passenger only needs to be lower than the delay compensation for this to make financial business sense.
• The flight departing means there is not a knock-on impact to the subsequent flights scheduled for the same aircraft.
• In any event, it is quite likely that fewer passengers have hold baggage than there would be passenger on the flight, so the cost is only multiplied by a smaller number of times.

I still don't think airlines would be adopting this as a strategy on a wide basis.

If airlines do, then it is kind of what we get by developing the compensation culture.  I guess mail order delivery suppliers have to build something in to the cost for returns "for any or no reason" and some of those returns being unsellable.  Airlines must be similar in managing an allowance and mitigation for compensation payments.  Obviously, we all want everything for the lowest possible price as well.  And now, someone wants great service too.  These are not all compatible desires.

I offer three types of service, you can pick any two:

• good service fast won't be cheap
• good service cheap won't be fast
• fast service good won't be cheap
• fast service cheap won't be good
• cheap service fast won't be good
• cheap service good won't be fast

zagfles

Grumpy_chap said:

mr_stripey said:

In response to OP - t makes no sense that airlines would be deliberately and intentionally not loading bags onto aircraft. To what end exactly? They still have to ship the bags (at a greater cost no doubt as they will need to be delivered to individual addresses rather than unloaded at one point).

Operationally it makes no sense. Incidents and disruptions happen and by and large the system reunites bags with passengers reasonably quickly and efficiently.

While I don't think departure without luggage is a key plank of any airline business model, I think that comment about cost is exactly the point the OP was trying to make:

• A flight can leave late and trigger delay compensation, £200 or more per passenger.
• That flight being delayed might mean subsequent flights in the day also trigger delay compensation.
• OR, the flight can leave late but soon enough to avoid the delay compensation, but without baggage.  The cost for reuniting baggage with passenger only needs to be lower than the delay compensation for this to make financial business sense.
• The flight departing means there is not a knock-on impact to the subsequent flights scheduled for the same aircraft.
• In any event, it is quite likely that fewer passengers have hold baggage than there would be passenger on the flight, so the cost is only multiplied by a smaller number of times.

I still don't think airlines would be adopting this as a strategy on a wide basis.

If airlines do, then it is kind of what we get by developing the compensation culture.  I guess mail order delivery suppliers have to build something in to the cost for returns "for any or no reason" and some of those returns being unsellable.  Airlines must be similar in managing an allowance and mitigation for compensation payments.  Obviously, we all want everything for the lowest possible price as well.  And now, someone wants great service too.  These are not all compatible desires.

I offer three types of service, you can pick any two:

• good service fast won't be cheap
• good service cheap won't be fast
• fast service good won't be cheap
• fast service cheap won't be good
• cheap service fast won't be good
• cheap service good won't be fast

Yup, it's what you get when you have simple targets and measures, and rewards/fines/compensation for meeting or failing to meet those targets. Organisations will works towards those targets rather than do what makes the most sense in any given situation.

Grumpy_chap

zagfles said:

Yup, it's what you get when you have simple targets and measures, and rewards/fines/compensation for meeting or failing to meet those targets. Organisations will works towards those targets rather than do what makes the most sense in any given situation.

Quite true.

I'd also suggest, that even without the fines / penalties, it might make sense for a flight to go with some baggage knowingly left behind.  If a flight has been delayed - say, 1.5 hours - and has an opportunity to go with all the passengers boarded (but not all the luggage), should the Captain take that departure slot?  
Alternatively, should the Captain not take that slot, without knowing when the next slot might be, save it could be several hours delay with all the passenger sitting on the plane.  That long delay, while the remaining few items of baggage are loaded, might put crew out of hours and will almost certainly have knock-on impacts across the schedule.

I wonder which would get most threads on forums such as this?

• My baggage was delayed
• My flight was delayed and we spent ages sitting on the plane before they eventually went anywhere
• We spent hours sitting on the plane then the flight was cancelled because there was no crew

jimi_man

Pollycat said:

jimi_man said:

Pollycat said:

jimi_man said:

Pollycat said:

CelticFire said:

Situ 1 Flying from Heathrow with BA.  BA knowingly left behind the cases belonging to passengers who were transferring to that flight.  Only luggage which arrived was those who checked in directly at Heathrow. 

Situ 2. Package Holiday TUI Check in 13:00 for a 15:30 flight.  Flight delayed 2.5 hours. Getting close to 3 hr compensation time when flight took off, leaving behind all but a few cases on the trolley. 

On both occasions staff knew the baggage was left as they informed us as soon as we were airborne. On both occasions there were over 100 people affected, so it’s not a personal issue merely trying to gauge if it is widespread in the industry, or are some operators worse than others.
As to whether or not it’s part of a business model, maybe I’m more cynical than others but there are financial penalties  (including knock on flights)  which are far higher than lost baggage claims.

Was the other flight also from LHR?

How do you know this 

CelticFire said:

In a short post I didn’t go in to all the details just wanted to gauge this forum so I’ll elucidate.  We’ve travelled extensively.  Yes we have,  as some suggested split our belongings in two cases.  And yes, surprisingly enough we did arrive in plenty of time for check in. This doesn’t help however when the airline CHOOSE to leave them behind. ( both cases) 

for certain?

Could it be a ground crew issue.
AFAIK, neither BA or TUI staff load hold luggage for their flights?

What the OP describes does occasionally happen.(I can only provide information in relation to BA). In times of disruption sometimes there is a decision to be made whether to leave without all the bags but all the passengers or it may be a case of not leaving at all. It has nothing to do with how early or late one checks in. If everything is ready but the either none or half maybe of the luggage has been loaded then it’s often better just to leave and let the luggage catch up. This is a decision generally made by the commander of the aircraft , in conjunction with the airline. 

But is it an airline business plan/model?
Which is what the OP is stating - and that is the point people are disputing, not that it doesn't happen at all.

Well I'm not sure exactly what you mean by business plan/model. 

It's not my phrase.
It's the OP's
So ask them what they mean.

I think I've explained exactly what BA do in relation to this. That it happens more than once then I suppose one could say it's a policy that they can employ to ensure their most effective service. So I probably don't really need to ask the OP what they mean.

It's not a business plan per se, since as I explained, it's in their interests to get as many people and luggage to as many destinations together as possible. But it's a deliberate tactic that can be used to expedite some services in challenging conditions. It's not a case of 'oh sh**, we forgot some bags', it's a case of 'we can leave now with only 3/230 bags loaded or we may not be able to leave at all. So it is a deliberate (and to my mind, a perfectly reasonable) policy. 

I hope that explains it.

I have no idea if other airlines do this, though I imagine they do. I vaguely recall a Simon Calder article about where a LoCo airline left it all behind for a weight issue or something. 

kinger101

I've had it happen three times and I'm not  that frequent a flyer.  Always with a flight too or from US.  The, coupled with the fact that both USA and Canada airports seem to be extremely inefficient in getting bags to baggage claim means I only take checked luggage if absolutely necessary when crossing the pond.  

 It is a real pain having baggage not arrive.  As well as standing for even longer in baggage claim, you then have to wait around at home the next day for a driver to bring your bags.

Did work in my favour once.  In business class.  I got told as soon as I arrived my bag was on the next flight, and they offered to stick me a hotel overnight and bring my bag to the room first thing.  Which I took, because I was knackered anyway, and wasn't looking forward to the 4 hour onward journey.

Can't be part of their business plan.  Paying a driver to deliver you bag to wherever you may end up in the country the next day isn't cheap