UC and if you go over 16k?

Spoonie_Turtle

Interestingly from the Cost of Living Payments document from that rightsnet list:

"Payments do not affect the claimant’s entitlement to Universal Credit and are disregarded when calculating their income, savings and investments. See Capital disregarded indefinitely."

Explicitly confirmed, for the poster who is having their COL payments included in their capital.

Also from unearned income https://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2025-0364/190._Unearned_income-Guidance_V25.0.pdf

"Adjusting the Universal Credit maximum amount: certain income not taken into account
The following is a list of regular unearned income types which are not taken into account in Universal Credit. This list is not exhaustive, as other types of income not listed in regulations may be available: 
…
• War Pensions including War Disablement Pension and War Widows or Widowers Pensions   
• Armed Forces Compensation Scheme or Service Attributable Pensions and Service-attributable, non-taxable Service Invalidity Pensions
• income paid to meet the additional costs or expenses of disability, for example: 
o Disability Living Allowance, Scottish Adult Disability Living Allowance (SADLA), Child Disability Payment (Scotland), Personal Independence Payment (PIP), Adult Disability Payment (ADP) or Armed Forces Independence Payment
o Attendance Allowance or Pension Age Disability Payment (PADP) in Scotland, Constant Attendance Allowance (including Industrial Injuries and War Disablement Pension strands of Constant Attendance Allowance) or Access to Work payments
o Local Authority Community Care 
o Independent Living Payment
…
Please note, only income specifically prescribed in the regulations can be taken into account. See also Capital disregards."

Please anyone tell me if I'm missing something or interpreting it with bias, do others interpret it as meaning that those benefits (when received) are classed as income under UC?


That's a real treasure trove HSB!

NedS

Spoonie_Turtle said:

NedS said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

The part about income is very reassuring for me, NedS!

As to PIP/DLA/etc., would it fall under this?

"(3) Subject to paragraph (4), any sums that are paid regularly and by reference to a period, for example payments under an annuity, are to be treated as income even if they would, apart from this provision, be regarded as capital or as having a capital element."

[Paragraph (4) referenced deals with capital payable in installments, which does not sound like it applies to normal benefit payments.]

That regulation normally applies to money taken from a pension, in defining whether it is a lump sum (capital) or a regular payment (income).

NedS said:

HillStreetBlues said:

Good point about PIP,   now that has me now wondering about that, is it just capital

It's definitely not earned income.

UC Regs state "unearned income" has the meaning in Chapter 3 of Part 6, which is essentially Reg 66. Anything not defined therein is by definition not "unearned income" for UC purposes. PIP/DLA are not there (and neither is UC), so by definition PIP/DLA (and UC) do not fall within the definition of income for UC purposes. So if they are not recognised as income, it's hard to argue in the legal sense that they should not be included (as they are income) in any capital decision. …

Part of the issue here is that UC has no mechanism other than to deduct pound for pound anything defined as unearned income (student income being the exception to the rule), so if you specifically define PIP as unearned income, you then have to introduce a separate regulation to specifically disregard it, and what's the point of that (in legislative terms), it's just double handling.

Sorry to come back to this a few pages later, but -

Does the regulation usually applying to pensions nevessarily preclude it from applying to other things?

The reason I ask is the guidance states:

"H1021 A payment is capital if it is
1. not made or due to be made regularly and
2. made without reference to a period.
The payment is income if this does not apply¹.
                                ¹ UC Regs, reg 46(3)"  - the same regulation mentioned above

And 

"What is unearned income
H5002 [See Memo ADM 20/20 and Memo ADM 26/20] A claimant’s unearned income means1 any of their income consisting of:

… (List)

If a type of income is not listed above, it does not affect the claimant’s award."

So if I am understanding and interpreting correctly, the guidance appears to acknowledge there are types of income that do not affect a claimant's UC award. 
Can that then mean that since money cannot simultaneously be both income and capital, then income that does not affect an award, while it is still income, simply is not taken into account in any way (not 'disregarded' because it's not capital at that point) and effectively doesn't exist within the UC system, until it later becomes capital?

However IANAL (obviously), and very unhelpfully I am missing a fundamental chunk of understanding; ADM H1 says "H1020 Capital is not defined in the regulations but what is meant by capital can be found in general law" - crucially, I do not know what the law says about that so I truly have no clue whether the above is fundamentally flawed reasoning.

 @Spoonie_Turtle Reg 46(3) doesn't apply here. This regulation is in relation to capital that can be treated as income - e.g, if you have some capital amount such as a pension pot from which you draw regular income.

But as you identify, H5002 acknowledges 'other' types of income that are not listed in H5002 can exist (such as PIP/DLA), and your later post on unearned income guidance quotes other examples such as War and War Disablement pensions (these are the bits I missed but logically had to exist - thank you). This guidance confirms unearned income other than that listed in H5002 is income in the AP in which it is received (but has not effect in calculating the UC award), and would become capital in the following AP if unspent where it would be treated in the normal way.

Spoonie_Turtle

NedS said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

NedS said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

The part about income is very reassuring for me, NedS!

As to PIP/DLA/etc., would it fall under this?

"(3) Subject to paragraph (4), any sums that are paid regularly and by reference to a period, for example payments under an annuity, are to be treated as income even if they would, apart from this provision, be regarded as capital or as having a capital element."

[Paragraph (4) referenced deals with capital payable in installments, which does not sound like it applies to normal benefit payments.]

That regulation normally applies to money taken from a pension, in defining whether it is a lump sum (capital) or a regular payment (income).

NedS said:

HillStreetBlues said:

Good point about PIP,   now that has me now wondering about that, is it just capital

It's definitely not earned income.

UC Regs state "unearned income" has the meaning in Chapter 3 of Part 6, which is essentially Reg 66. Anything not defined therein is by definition not "unearned income" for UC purposes. PIP/DLA are not there (and neither is UC), so by definition PIP/DLA (and UC) do not fall within the definition of income for UC purposes. So if they are not recognised as income, it's hard to argue in the legal sense that they should not be included (as they are income) in any capital decision. …

Part of the issue here is that UC has no mechanism other than to deduct pound for pound anything defined as unearned income (student income being the exception to the rule), so if you specifically define PIP as unearned income, you then have to introduce a separate regulation to specifically disregard it, and what's the point of that (in legislative terms), it's just double handling.

Sorry to come back to this a few pages later, but -

Does the regulation usually applying to pensions nevessarily preclude it from applying to other things?

The reason I ask is the guidance states:

"H1021 A payment is capital if it is
1. not made or due to be made regularly and
2. made without reference to a period.
The payment is income if this does not apply¹.
                                ¹ UC Regs, reg 46(3)"  - the same regulation mentioned above

And 

"What is unearned income
H5002 [See Memo ADM 20/20 and Memo ADM 26/20] A claimant’s unearned income means1 any of their income consisting of:

… (List)

If a type of income is not listed above, it does not affect the claimant’s award."

So if I am understanding and interpreting correctly, the guidance appears to acknowledge there are types of income that do not affect a claimant's UC award. 
Can that then mean that since money cannot simultaneously be both income and capital, then income that does not affect an award, while it is still income, simply is not taken into account in any way (not 'disregarded' because it's not capital at that point) and effectively doesn't exist within the UC system, until it later becomes capital?

However IANAL (obviously), and very unhelpfully I am missing a fundamental chunk of understanding; ADM H1 says "H1020 Capital is not defined in the regulations but what is meant by capital can be found in general law" - crucially, I do not know what the law says about that so I truly have no clue whether the above is fundamentally flawed reasoning.

 @Spoonie_Turtle Reg 46(3) doesn't apply here. This regulation is in relation to capital that can be treated as income - e.g, if you have some capital amount such as a pension pot from which you draw regular income.

But as you identify, H5002 acknowledges 'other' types of income that are not listed in H5002 can exist (such as PIP/DLA), and your later post on unearned income guidance quotes other examples such as War and War Disablement pensions (these are the bits I missed but logically had to exist - thank you). This guidance confirms unearned income other than that listed in H5002 is income in the AP in which it is received (but has not effect in calculating the UC award), and would become capital in the following AP if unspent where it would be treated in the normal way.

Ah that's very clear, thank you.

I had never seen the other guidance documents before!  Very helpful HillStreetBlues finding and linking them.

blackstar

Update.

Firstly anyone know the size limit for uploading a document on UC? Just before I spent time merging documents together?

Not really an update but got a Journal message from the DM about my MR ie income/capital.

He said "Apologies, but the bank statements you have provided for bank of scotland are just overviews. Full bank statements would be needed.

In addition the bank statement for nationwide does not cover the dates requested.

There appears to be a duplicate part of the statement, so the earnings are not showing.

Also, there appears to be a loyalty saver account that the statement for has not been provided. 

Full bank statements covering the 29 June till 31st July would be required with any outgoings marked, so that a correct review can be completed.

Thank you for your prompt response"

Issues with that are 

1) Why dates from 29th June to 31st July, when our AP is 29th June to 28th July?

2) he said the other day

"there are no bank statements provided to show the earnings or benefits were no longer being in the account at the end of the assessment period. Given this, I would require evidence supporting the earnings and benefits  used within the assessment period, to disregard them."

But today us asking for my Loyalty saver statement. But why? Which is fine but he can see from the bank of scotland and nationwide which is where all our income comes into and out of and he can see theres been no outgoings into our Reward saver account. 

I dont understand what hes wanting to do? If hes just wanting to see we have spent our incomings then those are the only two accounts that they go into so he can see that? He can also see we have only used the money on living costs and nothing transfered to any other accounts. 

Or is he trying to also add up our capital in which case he needs to know about my £20.00 bonds my mother set up for me on the year I was born too and my help to save account aswell. So is he wanting to see everything  or just the accounts the incomings have gone into?


3) I did supply the correct dates 100% so he is wrong about that. 

For the so called summary, it was printed out at the bank but it's only on the first page that shows my name and address and sort code and account number etc....the other pages just have what we spent ie incomjngs and outgoings and what we spent our money on. So dont know why he rejected it, I know it's not the exact same as a statement sent in the post. 

Ahhh so frustrating as we were meant to be paid on Aug 5th and still nothing. We couldn't get a advance as UC is on hold due to capital being assesed.

Thanks all

NedS

blackstar said:

Update.

<snip>

2) he said the other day

"there are no bank statements provided to show the earnings or benefits were no longer being in the account at the end of the assessment period. Given this, I would require evidence supporting the earnings and benefits  used within the assessment period, to disregard them."

But today us asking for my Loyalty saver statement. But why? Which is fine but he can see from the bank of scotland and nationwide which is where all our income comes into and out of and he can see theres been no outgoings into our Reward saver account. 

I dont understand what hes wanting to do? If hes just wanting to see we have spent our incomings then those are the only two accounts that they go into so he can see that? He can also see we have only used the money on living costs and nothing transfered to any other accounts. 

Or is he trying to also add up our capital in which case he needs to know about my £20.00 bonds my mother set up for me on the year I was born too and my help to save account aswell. So is he wanting to see everything  or just the accounts the incomings have gone into?

They will want to see statements for ALL accounts for the relevant periods. If you provide statements for some accounts (the active accounts), and they show the existence of another account for which you have not provided full statements, it just looks like you might be trying to hide something. Why have you not provided statements for the Loyalty Savers Account?

If you have already uploaded any requested statements, just state the date you provided them.

His statement that you have quoted makes no sense. Why would he require evidence of monies you've spent within the AP to disregard them? Any monies you've spent is gone so by definition no longer exists to disregard. But further, why are your outgoings not already showing on the statements that have been provided. If you've provided everything, then they should be able to see all of your incomes and outgoings (and what you've spent your income on is irrelevant).

I suspect he intends to deduct any income that you have spent in the AP to reach a figure of unspent income to deduct from the total balance when calculating your capital on the last day of the AP (working on the premise that your regular outgoings are met from income, not capital, so you spend your income first each month). Either that, or he just has no clue what he's doing, but lets give him the benefit of the doubt for now and assume the former.

HillStreetBlues

NedS said:

I suspect he intends to deduct any income that you have spent in the AP to reach a figure of unspent income to deduct from the total balance when calculating your capital on the last day of the AP (working on the premise that your regular outgoings are met from income, not capital, so you spend your income first each month). Either that, or he just has no clue what he's doing, but lets give him the benefit of the doubt for now and assume the former.

For the last few replies the OP has had from their UC account I believe they are taking the spending from income, I also think the person hasn't a clue how to communicate, and their replies come across as gibberish.
It seems we will have to find out how any overpayment has been calculated before we know what rules (if any) they have followed, until then we can only guess which makes any angle of defence almost impossible.

blackstar
When I had my UC review I sent all my bank statements as one PDF, think it was over 100 pages but I might have used a PDF compressor.
Just checked and I had 48 bank statements to upload (12 accounts 4 months of each).

blackstar

Thanks everyone, Hill, Ned Spoonie and others.

Hill, that's good news as that's what I have just soent 6 hours doing as I am not technically gifted. 

I've also got a problem as I have the following too

* PayPal zero balance, used for paying for things only 
* ns and I direct Saver £100
* Ns and I premium bonds £20.00
*  Help to Save

(Both ns and I accounts set up for me when I was born by my mother, so its a sentimental thing to keep them even though they are worth almost nothing)

If he asks for something showing my name and address and transactions of incomings and out goings for those dates on those 4 accounts then I will be totally gutted as I have tried in the past to get information for those and PayPal was impossible as nothing they have shows my name and address on the front, they simply dont produce statements in any readable acceptable to UC sense. 

The other three Help to Sawe etc...I think I managed to get statements before, but nit sure if hi was successful but had to call and a long wait for them to arrive I think. 
Can't do it online I don't think. 

Yes maybe that's what he is thinking to do? But have no idea, he doesnt seem very trained or knowledgeable at all. Not convinced in the slightest he will do it correctly.

Honestly, next time I dont care if we get underpaid at all....we will be way under 16k but over 6k and I am not going to ask them to remove the capital or COL next time as the amount of pressure and time and inconvenience it has caused is no way worth it. 

I didn't provide the reward saver statements as he I think just asked for statements showing the wage and benefits so just provided him the statements that showed them. I didnt realise he wanted to see everything ie help to save, preium Bonds etc, I didn't realise he was also adding up all my capital too? I know now and have merged all account statements but will have to send away for the Help to Save one etc...so will delay things even futher....unless theres another way...if I goto job centre and just open up the apps and they can see it in real time maybe. 

Auti

When I had a help to save there was an online summary/account page that I could view when I wanted and it gave balance and other bonus info maybe screenshot it and send that in with a covering note saying about this is how help to save give info (send any lettters too (online or physical). It might be acceptable fingers crossed.

blackstar

HillStreetBlues said:

Been having a search and come across a Rightsnet page of UC Guidance from  House of Commons library https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/resources/universal-credit-guidance
Other Benefits https://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2025-0364/128._Other_benefits-Guidance_V30.0.pdf

Other benefits and pensions which are not taken into account
Benefits and pensions which are not taken into account are:
• Armed Forces Compensation Scheme or Service Attributable Pensions
and Service-attributable, non-taxable Service Invalidity Pensions
• Armed Forces Independence Payment
• Attendance Allowance or Pension Age Disability Payment (PADP) in
Scotland, Constant Attendance Allowance (including Industrial Injuries and
War Disablement Pension strands of Constant Attendance Allowance)
• Access to Work payments
• Bereavement Support Payment
• Child Benefit
• Child Disability Payment (Scotland)
• Christmas Bonus
• Disability Living Allowance
• Discretionary Housing Payments (local authority)
• Funeral Support Payment (Scotland)
• Fostering Allowance
• Guardian’s Allowance
• Independent Living Payments
• local Council Tax Reduction
• Modern Slavery Victim Care Contract (MSVCC)
• Personal Independence Payment (PIP)
• Adult Disability Payment (ADP)
• Scottish Adult Disability Living Allowance (SADLA) in Scotland
• Scottish Government Carer’s Allowance Supplement (CAS) paid twice
yearly to recipients of Carer’s Allowance in Scotland
• Transition to Universal Credit housing payment
• War Pensions, including War Disablement Pension and War Widows or
Widowers Pensions
• Young Carer Grant

The guidance is clear about PIP not being taken into account , but can't find any case law.
What I would suggest is anyone having issues about PIP being treated as capital in the AP it's paid in, is linking the HoC guidance above.

Hill that's a great find.

But I dont understand about it is?

1) All income, all benefits and earnings become capital if not spent at the end of the AP after the one in which it was received right?

2) In the links you excellently found it says "Other benefits and pensions which are not taken into account" things like DLA etc but is that just in reference to it being an income and not as capital at the end of the next AP ?

3) the DM said

"Disability Living Allowance (DLA) is generally disregarded as income, but if not spent within the period it's paid, it can be considered capital. any remaining of your childs DLA would be disregarded however, any remaining DLA for yourself at the end of the assessment period would be considered capital"

Firstly hes wrong, it's the AP after the one it's received that it becomes capital, not the one in which it is received.

Secondtly, is he saying the child's DLA will always be ignored as capital like the COL payments?
While it sounds lovely but I dont know of any legislation saying that?
And if so for how long? If indefinitely then at some point the entire amount will amount to our entire capital? Or is it just if there was anything left over from our childs DLA that is indefinitely disregarded  but how can you seperate or differentiate or distinguish the childs DLA money from adult DLA or earnings etc from whats left in the account that various other incomes arrive into??? Its impossible.
Sorry im confused by what he is saying?

Please note Im not saying our child's DLA will build up as it gets spent on our child but say we have 3k in the bank before the childs DLA arrives into the account and other incomes and say we always end up back at 3k after our child's DLA.is spent, how do you know that remains 3k that was already there isnt the Childs DLA, even though it's been soent, how do you distinguish between what that 3k is? It's just money? It's mixed with alsorts ie earnings, UC, DLA etc

He said

"ESA benefits themselves are not considered capital. However, unspent ESA payments at the end of a payment period are treated as capital"

All income is income, ESA  DLA, UC etc.

He's wrong also, it's the next assessment peroid it becomes capital, not the same one.

"Disability Living Allowance (DLA) is generally disregarded as income, but if not spent"

Ofcourse it's disregarded as income, like earnings has an impact on UC payments. 

Honestly, even if he gets it wrong, which clearly he will if hes following what hes saying and doesnt sound like he knows or understands it at all, then honestly so long as he sets it as below 16k which he absolutely should, then I am not sure if I would goto the tribunal? How would it benefit me to do so? 

Also in future when making our monthly money savings and investments declaration I wont ask them to remove the income in future as all it does it causes weeks of delays, hours and hirs of printing bank statements and such and then being told I haven't included dates which I have and all strain it causes is not worth it at all. And them getting it wrong and having no idea how it works causing futher strain...

If it was a simple process to remove income from the money savings and investments, then sure no problem but due to 

A) System is not set up to accommodate their own H1050, COL etc

B ) Majority of staff have no idea about income and capital, they think you just add it all up and thats your capital. Even the specialists in the Decision making dont understand their own legislation, then you have no chance. 

So the moral or the story I have found, atleast for me, is maybe save your self delays and put on hold payments, hours and hours of time putting together documents and a huge amount of strain and maybe dont try to get them to remove your income and let them just count it as capital like they want to do and forget about the monthly missed money and underpayment you will get from money you loose from the £4.35 from every £250 from your income they will incorrectly class as capital. 

itsthelittlethings

Edited as request.

extra characters so reply is not too short.