Is this smart meter wired up for Eco 7?

Gerry1

MWT said:

Gerry1 said:

Multi-rate meters are capable of supporting E7 regardless of whether they're 4 or 5 ports.  The problem is that 4-port meters won't provide automatic switching of dedicated E7 circuits without a risky local timer or an obsolescent teleswitch.

Even a 4-port meter can still control an external ALCS ...

Presumably it has four fat wires and a fifth thin wire?

MWT

Gerry1 said:

MWT said:

Gerry1 said:

Multi-rate meters are capable of supporting E7 regardless of whether they're 4 or 5 ports.  The problem is that 4-port meters won't provide automatic switching of dedicated E7 circuits without a risky local timer or an obsolescent teleswitch.

Even a 4-port meter can still control an external ALCS ...

Presumably it has four fat wires and a fifth thin wire?

Yes, correct.

Gerry1

MWT said:

Gerry1 said:

MWT said:

Gerry1 said:

Multi-rate meters are capable of supporting E7 regardless of whether they're 4 or 5 ports.  The problem is that 4-port meters won't provide automatic switching of dedicated E7 circuits without a risky local timer or an obsolescent teleswitch.

Even a 4-port meter can still control an external ALCS ...

Presumably it has four fat wires and a fifth thin wire?

Yes, correct.

I'd call that a 4-port meter but perhaps the industry doesn't !
Hope the thin wire output is upstream of the meter otherwise the user is lumbered with the cost of the current to activate the ALCS contactor.

lilac_dawn

Gerry1 said:

lilac_dawn said:

Thanks - I just wanted confirmation that the meter is indeed capable of E7 with 5 ports as I understood the 4 port ones were not.

Multi-rate meters are capable of supporting E7 regardless of whether they're 4 or 5 ports.  The problem is that 4-port meters won't provide automatic switching of dedicated E7 circuits without a risky local timer or an obsolescent teleswitch.

lilac_dawn said:

I understand E7 billing and tariff but I suspect the tenant has signed up for a flat rate. He didn’t know and couldn’t show me a bill. He also doesn’t have the app.

Seems a bit unlikely because E7 would have been a given when the teleswitch was installed.  A previous tenant might have switched to single rate if not using NSHs, or just for the summer.  Otherwise there's little reason to do so, especially if the tenant isn't very clued up about bills and tariffs.  He doesn't need an app, the EDF website can be used to view his account.

But it has dedicated switching - is that correct? That’s what I meant when I asked if it was ‘wired for’.
It was on Eco 7. There may be little reason to do change, but I suspect that’s what he’s done, unwittingly. To my mind, there is little reason to use the boost function on an immersion when you can heat it with E7 but that is what he chooses.  Each to their own, however.
 I know he doesn’t need an app but as he doesn’t know his tariff - other than telling me it is variable but then saying he is paying the same rate for both - I think an app would be easier for him to manage. However, this is all his concern as a tenant. 

Gerry1

lilac_dawn said:

Thanks - I just wanted confirmation that the meter is indeed capable of E7 with 5 ports as I understood the 4 port ones were not.

Yes the fat cable labelled LLL will be the switched E7 circuit that should supply the wall outlets used to charge the NSHs and the immersion heater.

It's quite likely that the smart meter hasn't been configured correctly for the property, e.g. it's using only one register and the LLL cable isnever being switched on.  If so, that's relatively good news because it should be fixable remotely IF you can get through to someone who understands the problem.  The call centre operator probably won't have a clue so at the start you'll need to escalate it to the right team and be persistent.

Does the hot tank have one immersion heater or two?  The best arrangement is to have two, one low down on the E7 switched circuit and one in the middle on a 24h circuit but normally left switched off or, better still, on a 1hr or 2hr one-shot timer for use only if the hot water runs out during the day or after a return from holiday.

If there's only one heating element and it's on an E7 circuit it will be economical, but excessive use can mean lukewarm or cold water until the next morning.

Some meters have a boost function (button or menu option) that can be used as a one-shot to fire up the E7 circuits for an hour during the day, albeit at the expensive day rate.  This could be useful in extremis if there's only one immersion heater or an under-dimensioned NSH.  If you tell us the meter model number someone may be able to advise on the above points.  Failing a boostable meter, if there's only one immersion heater the realistic choices are:-

• Connect the heater to the E7 circuit and accept that the hot water can run out.
• Connect the heater to a 24h circuit and use a local non-mechanical timer to mimic the E7 times.  Risky if the times are wrong, it'll use expensive day rate.  Fit an E7 outlet with a neon indicator that can be easily seen at a glance to minimise any variance in switching times being overlooked.
• Connect the heater to a 24h circuit.  User turns heater on last thing at night and off in the morning, but awkward if E7 kicks in well after bedtime or the user forgets.

Ildhund

That meter is an Aclara SGM 1416-B. I know it well - I've got one.
It's a five-port SMETS2 meter with a built-in ALCS to control an auxiliary load, e.g. a timed switch circuit that's only live during offpeak periods. It's commonly used for Economy 7 and other ToU arrangements.
Three things have to be in place and match up if the system is to work as expected.

1. The tariff agreed with the customer. This should specify the unit rates and standing charge, and for ToU tariffs, the peak and offpeak times. It's immaterial whether the peak and offpeak rates are the same or different.
2. The ToU matrix in the meter, which lays down the times when consumption is recorded on the various registers. In this sort of domestic situation with no local generation or export involved, only the first two tiers would be used: Tier 1 for peak, tier 2 for offpeak.
   The times should match those given in the tariff.
3. The ALCS calendar, which specifies the times and dates when the switched circuit is live. For an ordinary domestic Economy 7 tariff, this would be the same times for all days, but other variants do exist. Again, the times would normally match those given in the tariff.

There has been no usage recorded on the Tier 2 register. Since it's very unlikely that there has been zero consumption during the normal E7 offpeak hours, it's fairly clear that the ToU matrix hasn't been configured (2 above). All consumption is recorded on the Tier 1 register.
  
The storage heaters (and probably the water heater's main element, too) are wired on the switched circuit - the one fed from the meter tail marked LLL. If they're not getting any charging power, the ALCS (3) most probably hasn't been configured to switch that circuit on.
  
So long as the meter is communicating with the supplier, both of these deficiencies can be remedied OTA. A visiting engineer can't change the settings, because they need supplier's certification. The customer will have to ask for this to be put right.

Scot_39

Off Topic for OP

AFAIK there is no guarantee a 4 port meter - has ALCS of any type - so no auxiliary contact support built in. As that is still perfectly capable of supporting more modern non split - i.e. everything from 24/7 live CU - circuit homes with conventional TOU tariffs. 

And thats part of the confusion when people think of E7 meter just in terms of the tariff rather than potentially part of the bigger home wiring environment.  As many even in supplier customer services tend to.

(Years ago when I was forced off of RTS - EOn offered both E10 - to drive split circuits and SR - with the caveat - any internal wiring mods required (without listing what that might mean) - would be customers responsibility (i.e. cost) - not once did I get a sensible answer for regualr CS what that might mean - to confirm what I already knew - but their sperate and now defunct AFAK complex metering team did)

The 2019 full technical spec for Aclara 1400 series - contains 5 models with a mix of options.

The 1411-B is a 4 port with no wired 2A switching for external contactor

The 1412-B is a 4 port with wired 2A switching

The 1415-B is a 5 port with on board 100A switch (well 2 inc normal) and no wired 2A switching

The 1416-B is a 5 port with on board 100A switch and wired 2A switching

The other model the 1422 - is as per 1415 - but measures port 4 and port 5 consumption seperately.

Back to topic

So in OPs case if meter itself switching or attempting to - and the fault lies elsewhere - the 1416-B display - could potentially display both contactor II shut for port 5 restricted (not open as shown, just as contactor I for port 4 is shown closed on bottom RHS in pictures) and a little LC1 block on bottom RHS when restricted feed if driven by it would be active (for the 2A contactor) at any nominally E7 off peak times (but as pointed out above strictly the ALCS times - which dont have to match - even if should for likes of e7).

Without checking the CU etc - which may even have tripped out or failed - just this last week - when NHS first tried after several months unused.

Even if the tenant here has in some way inadvertently triggered the situation in some way - by selecting a smart or single rate tariff on the new meter - and the supplier then (if have) wiping his e7 style ALCS settings (or never setting them on new 5 port meter - my 1st smart came preconfigured iirc - the boxes either had e7 or e10 written on them - these days ?) - by selecting such a rate tariff.

I continously get new deal is cheaper offers for my E10 - some are even SR fixes - not even E7 - without any warning of what that would do to peak/off peak mix - and so annual costs (and SR often come in summer when E10 can be marginally more expensive than single rate - but not when include need for timers or other rewiring at a CU level to keep heating.

But as not everyone can make those judgements - there should surely could have been a level of sanity check built into the switching process - to make them aware of the possible ramifications.

Even if say just 2 sets of questions if leaving e7 type multirate - like - do you have storage heating  / Do you have a HW immersion tank using e7 off peak electricity - and if so - do they have own timers - a no or don't know - could then trigger a more intelligent level of discussions to avoid (again presuming it is the meter) this sort of problem

But as per my old SR example - I suspect the comeback from an uncaring supplier - worst case - will simply be (as per my SR option) - "your choice of meter - you pay to fix the consequences in your home".

But hopefully in this day of smart meters - a simple OTA could fix this.

Even if the tenant doesnt really want to move back to an e7 style tariff - assuming has left one - in theory the ALCS calander table as per above post item 3 - could be updated.

lilac_dawn

Thanks all. 

You have confirmed what I diagnosed yesterday - the tenant needs to speak with his energy company. As there are other forms of heating, and he has hot water,  it is not an urgent situation, at least.
Re: the immersion, there is the E7 and the boost. Tenant chooses to use the boost rather than E7. Ramifications were clearly explained to him but he says he does not need to heat  a full tank of hot water. No modifications are needed. 

MWT

lilac_dawn said:

 I know he doesn’t need an app but as he doesn’t know his tariff - other than telling me it is variable but then saying he is paying the same rate for both - I think an app would be easier for him to manage. However, this is all his concern as a tenant. 

If he is paying the same rate for both time periods then either intentionally or unwittingly he is on a single rate version of the tariff.

He may have done that as it gives a lower rate than the peak rate on an E7 version, but of course he gets no low rate overnight and this may also have caused Octopus to configure the meter as single-rate as well, so no ALCS switching.

All perfectly fixable remotely as mentioned above, but he does need to understand how to ask for that and will see a change in the peak rate he is charged.

lilac_dawn

MWT said:

lilac_dawn said:

 I know he doesn’t need an app but as he doesn’t know his tariff - other than telling me it is variable but then saying he is paying the same rate for both - I think an app would be easier for him to manage. However, this is all his concern as a tenant. 

If he is paying the same rate for both time periods then either intentionally or unwittingly he is on a single rate version of the tariff.

He may have done that as it gives a lower rate than the peak rate on an E7 version, but of course he gets no low rate overnight and this may also have caused Octopus to configure the meter as single-rate as well, so no ALCS switching.

All perfectly fixable remotely as mentioned above, but he does need to understand how to ask for that and will see a change in the peak rate he is charged.

So if he wishes to continue paying for a single rate tarriff, can he request the ALCS switch to be configured and then the storage heaters will charge at their E7 times but he will be paying a single rate for them?