Must I have a Smart Meter?

Qyburn

rebecca1 said:

The latest was that I HAVE to have a smart meter but when I called Ofgem today they said that was incorrect!   

I'm not sure Ofgem are correct, they're probably referring to fitting a smart meter to replace a serviceable meter that's within it's certified life.

Why are you set against a smart meter anyway?

Scot_39

QrizB said:

rebecca1 said:

Top one is Economy 7, can anyone tell me if I have the one that needs to be changed when RTS goes in June?? 

You have a dual-rate electromechanical electricity meter with an attached RTS timeswitch (the top photo), plus an electrinic electricity meter (the bottom one), plus a gas meter in the brown box that's at the bottom of your middle photo. You haven't included a photo of the gas meter.

I would expect all three meters - the two electricity meters, plus the gas meter - to be replaced with one smart electricity meter and one smart gas meter.

However, you seem to have complex metering and replacing your two electricity meters with one will not be entirely straightforward. You should send those photos to EON Next so their metering technician can prepare for the job in advance, rather than be surprised by it.

@rebecca1

Yes the top spinning dial is rate controlled by the RTS black box below it - and is probably in itself out of date.

But there is no switched live showing from the RTS - only the power in and the rate selection thin cable to the meter out.

So it thats going to a common consumer unit for part of the house - then suspect that not only as mentioned the HW is on a timer - that the 5 economy 7 radiators - does that mean storage heaters ? are self timing or switched externally to the cabinet.

@QrizB

From those photos - there appears to be two incoming supply lines, 2 DNO fuses - and so one assumes 2 MPANS / 2 standing charges.

With 5 NSH (not sure what an economy 7 radiator is if not a storage heater) - an 80A line supports about 18.4 kW at 230V  (19.2 @240) - a larger NSH like a Quantum takes 3.3kW - my older box of bricks 3.7kW - not a lot of headroom if all 5 similar.  Even say a bog standard 2-2.5kW panel - would still be consuming 10-12A each.

So to go single meter - couldn't that possibly mean you might need to go 3 phase on one street feed - for a single 3 phase meter approach - and then not sure how to would be able to the restricted feed timing (if I am missing from those photos rebeeca1 doesnt need or at least currently have via metering - or located elsewhere).

As DNO mods like that can be expensive - it might be better to keep them separate for now - even at c£200pa standing charge per meter.

And in the 3m remaining to June switchoff - I'd be getting that meter swapped anyway.

rebecca1

I'm not sure Ofgem are correct, they're probably referring to fitting a smart meter to replace a serviceable meter that's within it's certified life.
I fully explained my situation at the house.  


Why are you set against a smart meter anyway?
I have friends who have negative experiences with their smart meters and I also read that many people are being overcharged by Smart and sometimes if their broadband is flakey you still have to submit your own readings! 
Also my brother stays  in the house where the economy 7 is so I know how much he has to pay for his electricity.. If I change meters I'm told ALL the electricity throughout the whole house is lumped on the same bill. That won't work for me as need to know his usage..  

So it thats going to a common consumer unit for part of the house - then suspect that not only as mentioned the HW is on a timer - that the 5 economy 7 radiators - does that mean storage heaters ? are self timing or switched externally to the cabinet.
Yes I have 5 Economy 7 storage heathers that heat up cheaply at night in a part of the house (rest of house is normal radiators with gas boiler).   They are on a timer which switches them to come on at night and release heat during the day. The hot water for those 3 rooms are  on an immersion which is on a time switch.  

Hope all this info answers all people's questions and thanks for your help...  

Chrysalis

To comment on your concerns.

A legacy meter means readings will always have to be submitted, this is only the case on a smart meter if it cannot communicate, so definitely not a valid reason to not get one. 

The overcharged thing is hear say at best, smart meters still have to be accurate in measurements, and I will give you my own story against the experiences you have been told, my old legacy meter was significantly elevating readings, smart meter is working properly. 

The situation with your brother sounds highly unusual, you have multiple meters for one house?  Typically a smart meter upgrade is a direct swap.  As an example there is 3 meters in my house, as its 3 flats, when I upgraded to a smart meter, the other 2 meters were not touched.  A smart meter installation is a meter swap, not a rewire up the house job. 

E7 type tariffs can be taken further with a smart meter with more modern TOU tariffs, that are usually better than E7. 

Scot_39

@rebecca1

But aren't they separate bills or sections of bill with separate supply numbers for the e7 and the normal electric digital meter for tge dual fuel part of house.
It's the meter and incoming supply lines that normally dictates the supply number / MPAN split not simply the billing or supply addresses. 
If they are on tge same bill I suspect they are separate - separate tariffs if you prefer - as you would ideally say pay day and night rates on the rts meter and say standard single rate on the digital for section of property with digital meter readings with gas heating.

Your change should only apply to the one meter and the one section of bill.
If you wanted chances are they could in theory even be billed from a separate supplier and/or in your brothers name for the e7 metering.  In the same way some still have both different electric and gas suppliers.
It is not that abnormal for larger properties to have two separate single phase and metered electricity supplies. Others have added a second single phase in past when needed it - or these days gone three phase to 1 meter at a cost when fitting ashp style electric heating.

I dont see why you shouldn't be able to change only the one over - rts e7 to smart e7.

It's not like you appear to have two meters one day and one night linked on same tariff (related meters ?) On the one supply (even if two mpans in many cases).
I did have 1 incoming supply but 2 meters two mpans when rts - my rts was a switch and a meter - only supplied and measured nsh and hw - and a physically separate single rate meter for the normal circuits.  They were I believe so called related meters - both were billed on the one tariff deal - and recorded as such.  I couldn't just change the one.
I  now have 1smart meter feeding everything.  I haven't actually moved supplier but quotes seemed to work a few times when though about it - so assume EOn (yes before EOn Next split off) corrected the national meter database.

Phones4Chris

@rebecca1
As stated by @Scot_39, you have two separate supplies (two DNO fuses/cut-outs, and so two MPANs).
Your first part of the picture shows the Analogue Two Rate Meter controlled by an RTS switch to change rates to the Off-peak rate at night. This meter and the RTS will need to be replaced and it will be replaced by a Smart Meter (no worry about that - I'll comment more in a moment).
The second part of your picture show a modern digital single rate meter (on a separate DNO cut-out, so a separate supply with its own MPAN)) which going by both its serial number and one of the labels stuck on the meter, it was changed in 2013 and so may still be within its certification date and should NOT need changing at this time (certainly not as part of the RTS switch off). If I've understood your information correctly, the Gas is for the part of the house that has the single rate modern digital electricity meter (please confirm for clarification).

The two supplies are obviously billed separately on the same bill as you have stated in your original post and there is absolutely no reason for this not to continue (I'm afraid @QrizB wasn't correct in the belief that the two meters would be replaced by one smart meter, these are two separate supplies). If you look at your bill you should find that you have just two MPANs, one for each meter (please confirm for clarity) and you will also have one MPRN for the gas supply.

Now, worries about smart meters. No real cause for concern. Most of the issues that appear in the press etc. are related to two problems.
1) People not checking their bills correctly and are getting estimated bills because the Smart Meter COMMS unit is not communicating and sending readings. (This can be for technical reasons - eg. rural area with poor signals, or something not registered correctly, etc.). This is NOT a major problem, it simple means you have to read the meter yourself and send readings to the supplier as you do at present. The meter itself still functions correctly and records usage correctly as with any other modern digital meter (just like the other one you have).
2) The other significant problem is the confusion between the IHD (In Home Display) and the Smart Meter itself. Current IHDs do not give separate readings from the meter for the Peak and Off-peak registers. You have to read the meter itself for them. The IHD does give to total of both (as does the meter as well). The other IHD issue is it not getting a reliable signal from the meter as it's too far away or there are thick walls or large metal objects in the way etc. so the information on the IHD may not update or do so spasmodically. This does NOT affect the correct functioning of the meter itself.

I hope that clarifies things a bit, if you have any other concern about smart meters working correctly, ask away.

As far as EON are concerned you need to clarify to them that the meter on whichever MPAN it is that is currently E7 is the ONLY one that is RTS and the ONLY ONE that needs to be changed to a new Smart Meter at this time.
The other meter on the other (MPAN) supply is a modern single rate digital meter. The Gas (MPRN) supply is associated with the part of the property on the single rate (MPAN) electricity supply and is NOT to be changed for a smart meter coupled to a new Smart meter for the E7 (MPAN) supply.
That should clarify any confusion they may have.

As far as your storage heaters go, it's not that uncommon that there are installations where the heaters have their own time switches and so they aren't controlled by any meter switching. This is especially so with modern HHR (high heat retention) storage heaters. The main downside of this type of set-up is ensuring their time-switches are set to coincide with the off-peak rates set by the meter. It would be nice to know what make and model storage heaters they are.

Edit: As far as smart meter comms is concerned, do any of your neighbours have a smart meter and does it send readings ok?

QrizB

Notwithstanding the lengthy and largely accurate reply above, reports on this forum show that most dual-MPAN supplies are being replaced by a single smart meter.

I guess it's possible that this particular installation will be an exception, but that definitely not the usual way of doing it.

chrisw

I love how the old meters in the pictures are made in England or Gt Britain. My smart meters are made in China and Taiwan.

rebecca1

Phone4Chris - thnks for all your help.. 

 If I've understood your information correctly, the Gas is for the part of the house that has the single rate modern digital electricity meter (please confirm for clarification).   Correct 

It would be nice to know what make and model storage heaters they are. Dimplex XLS6N, XLS12N,XLS18N (x2) XLS24N ...  picture of timer for the storage heaters below..

rebecca1

Does anyone know if I have a Smart meter fitted when the RTS gets switched off whether I will still have 2 displays I can read ? 1 day 1 night? Thks Rebecca