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Rogue Garage Trader

2

Comments

  • lisyloo
    lisyloo Posts: 30,008 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 19 November 2024 pm30 3:46PM
    My section 75 claim was sorted very quickly with Halifax (few days) but I provided everything up front - screenshots, letters, receipts, texts, phone call records.

    They will want to know what you've done to resolve it with the garage as they are jointly liable so will want to see you've tried to sort it with the garage first.
  • Thank you both so much for the advice - I have spoken with the credit card company and yes, I am able to claim the whole amount!  They have already processed the claim for the £300 deposit and must wait 45 days but I am able to go after the balance once this is processed.  I am so grateful to you and will be more careful in future! Cheers!
    Rescued by MSE! Profile name out of date as, thankfully, with lots of help from this site, have cleared my debts! Many thanks to MSE and good luck to all !!:dance:
  • Okell
    Okell Posts: 2,102 Forumite
    1,000 Posts First Anniversary Name Dropper
    Thank you both so much for the advice - I have spoken with the credit card company and yes, I am able to claim the whole amount!  They have already processed the claim for the £300 deposit and must wait 45 days but I am able to go after the balance once this is processed.  I am so grateful to you and will be more careful in future! Cheers!
    I'm probably being over-cautious, but did they confirm that they were treating it as a s75 claim?

    I ask because of the mention of 45 days.  

    45 days has nothing to do with s75 claims but is a feature of chargebacks.  In this case I think you need to be making a s75 claim as I suspect the trader will challenge a chargeback and you will lose it.

    (@born_again may have a better view than me on the merits of chargeback -v- s75 in your circumstances)
  • born_again
    born_again Posts: 18,399 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Fifth Anniversary Name Dropper
    They will do the chargeback 1st to see how it goes. They can assess the S75 claim on the balance, while that is ongoing. 👍
    Life in the slow lane
  • lisyloo
    lisyloo Posts: 30,008 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Okell said:
    Thank you both so much for the advice - I have spoken with the credit card company and yes, I am able to claim the whole amount!  They have already processed the claim for the £300 deposit and must wait 45 days but I am able to go after the balance once this is processed.  I am so grateful to you and will be more careful in future! Cheers!
    I'm probably being over-cautious, but did they confirm that they were treating it as a s75 claim?

    I ask because of the mention of 45 days.  

    45 days has nothing to do with s75 claims but is a feature of chargebacks.  In this case I think you need to be making a s75 claim as I suspect the trader will challenge a chargeback and you will lose it.

    (@born_again may have a better view than me on the merits of chargeback -v- s75 in your circumstances)
    Why do you think the case will be lost? On appeal they will look at both sides.

    I’m not sure the consumer has the choice of which way to go. The card company might want to do chargeback first as the cost is not borne by them.
  • Okell
    Okell Posts: 2,102 Forumite
    1,000 Posts First Anniversary Name Dropper
    lisyloo said:
    Okell said:
    Thank you both so much for the advice - I have spoken with the credit card company and yes, I am able to claim the whole amount!  They have already processed the claim for the £300 deposit and must wait 45 days but I am able to go after the balance once this is processed.  I am so grateful to you and will be more careful in future! Cheers!
    I'm probably being over-cautious, but did they confirm that they were treating it as a s75 claim?

    I ask because of the mention of 45 days.  

    45 days has nothing to do with s75 claims but is a feature of chargebacks.  In this case I think you need to be making a s75 claim as I suspect the trader will challenge a chargeback and you will lose it.

    (@born_again may have a better view than me on the merits of chargeback -v- s75 in your circumstances)
    Why do you think the case will be lost? On appeal they will look at both sides.

    I’m not sure the consumer has the choice of which way to go. The card company might want to do chargeback first as the cost is not borne by them.
    The impression I've gained from these boards is that if a trader challenges a chargeback then the bank will nealry always accept that challenge and reverse the refund against the consumer.

    There's also the issue that chargeback has no legal basis and is simply an agreement between Visa and Mastercard.  If a trader doesn't like a chargeback against then they don't have to challenge it - they can just sue the consumer in court if they think they have a case.

    I generally don't like chargeback (eg a trader can successfully challenge a chargeback with proof of delivery - even if that delivery is obviously to the wrong address!) and I think s75 is far more satisfactory and gives a consumer far better legal protection.

    But that's just my personal view...
  • born_again
    born_again Posts: 18,399 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Fifth Anniversary Name Dropper
    Okell said:
    lisyloo said:
    Okell said:
    Thank you both so much for the advice - I have spoken with the credit card company and yes, I am able to claim the whole amount!  They have already processed the claim for the £300 deposit and must wait 45 days but I am able to go after the balance once this is processed.  I am so grateful to you and will be more careful in future! Cheers!
    I'm probably being over-cautious, but did they confirm that they were treating it as a s75 claim?

    I ask because of the mention of 45 days.  

    45 days has nothing to do with s75 claims but is a feature of chargebacks.  In this case I think you need to be making a s75 claim as I suspect the trader will challenge a chargeback and you will lose it.

    (@born_again may have a better view than me on the merits of chargeback -v- s75 in your circumstances)
    Why do you think the case will be lost? On appeal they will look at both sides.

    I’m not sure the consumer has the choice of which way to go. The card company might want to do chargeback first as the cost is not borne by them.
    The impression I've gained from these boards is that if a trader challenges a chargeback then the bank will nealry always accept that challenge and reverse the refund against the consumer.

    There's also the issue that chargeback has no legal basis and is simply an agreement between Visa and Mastercard.  If a trader doesn't like a chargeback against then they don't have to challenge it - they can just sue the consumer in court if they think they have a case.

    I generally don't like chargeback (eg a trader can successfully challenge a chargeback with proof of delivery - even if that delivery is obviously to the wrong address!) and I think s75 is far more satisfactory and gives a consumer far better legal protection.

    But that's just my personal view...
    If you have compelling evidence then you can go back under pre arbitration (only have 21 days to do) & it then sits with Visa/Mastercard as judge & jury.
    Life in the slow lane
  • When I spoke with the credit card company, I said that the process of claiming was not explained to me and that it should have been treated as a Section 75 initially.
    I have today received an email from the credit card company to say "my claim" (so I'm guessing Chargeback) for the £300 deposit has been refunded to my account, adding that the retailer is still able to defend (can't see how as he has the car and the money) so I presume this will be the 45 day period.
    So I will follow this up with a Section 75 claim for the remainder, with evidence of paying through my bank to the garage owner personally.
    Once again, a massive thank you for all your advice on here - much appreciated!
    Rescued by MSE! Profile name out of date as, thankfully, with lots of help from this site, have cleared my debts! Many thanks to MSE and good luck to all !!:dance:
  • lisyloo
    lisyloo Posts: 30,008 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    I recently lost a chareback (the retailer disputed with evidence) and then won at section 75.
    I did get the feeling that Halifax didn't want to fight it.

    What I'm not sure of though is whether the consumer has the choice.
    I raised a "dispute" and usually you don't get to specify.
    It seems as though they chargeback first and if it's defended then they may move to section 75.

    yes the 45 day period is for the retailer to dispute (they need to provide evidence of why).
    On Amex it's 20 which means sometimes you can win if they can't act fast enough, but 45 days is enough for them to respond if they wish.
  • Okell
    Okell Posts: 2,102 Forumite
    1,000 Posts First Anniversary Name Dropper
    The problem is that banks/card providers seem to use chargeback as the default approach for all "disputes" raised with them even if the cardholder specifically requests a s75 claim be raised.  (There've been many threads on here where people think they've raised a s75 claim because that's what they requested, but on further investigation turns out to have been a chargeback).

    This is an issue because although chargeback applies to purchases <£100 its coverage or protection is not as comprehensive or as effective as a s75 claim*.  So when people have a chargeback turned down thinking they've raised a s75 claim, they're less likely to follow up with a s75 claim thinking they've already done that and it's been rejected so what's the point.

    Another major issue is that chargeback is not a legal right, it's just an agreement between Visa and Mastercard.  If you win a chargeback there's nothing in theory preventing the seller from suing you if they think you legally still owe them the money.  They don't even need to have challenged the chargeback because it has no legal standing.

    At least a s75 claim is based on a statute and in theory if your finance provider grants you a s75 claim that should be the legal end of the matter.

    I suspect banks etc are not transparent about how they deal with disputes as they have a vested interest in the result.  Obviously they would prefer the trader to stand the cost of a refund from a chargeback rather than fund a refund under s75 form their own money.


    *Two examples: a chargeback will fail if the trader has evidence of delivery, even if that evidence proves delivery to the wrong address!  Also chargeback only covers faults apparent on delivery and not ones that manifest themselves subsequently.  Or at least that's how I understand @born_again has explained some of the limitations of chargeback.
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