Economy 10 electricity - Price Comparison

steelbru

Until very recently I was on an old RTC controlled twin meter setup for my electricity ( THTC - Total Heating Total Control ). The RTC signal is being switched off next year, and I have now had my 2 meters replaced by a single smart meter that can deal with "complex tariffs" and am on Economy 10 with OVO. I'm happy with E10, not looking to switch to E7 or single pricing.
I understand that although not widely available, and certainly not widely advertised, then there are a few suppliers that support Economy 10 with a smart meter.
Does anyone know any comparison sites that would show those companies and their current E10 rates ? I've checked GoCompare, Uswitch, Comparethemarket and none of them cope with Economy 10.
Or is it a case of having to contact all the power companies directly ?
For info, OVO prices for North Scotland are currently Standard - 24.92p, Off-Peak - 20.25p, Daily Charge - 59.95p (all prices ex VAT), wondering if there are any better deals out there.

Scot_39

None of the switch sites do E10.  Never have afaik.  There used to be a user ran board for e10 users but that went after low use and spamming - few years ago.


Edf afaik are the only ones who openly publish regional e10 figures.

Their NScotland rates currently 62.93 SC, 35.64p, 14.35p peak for Dd if read the tablelink below correctly .

You could see if their rates are better for your mix - but mapping thtc onto e10 if times and your hone circuits different etc can be tricky - they were accepting a couple of posters here  thtc onto e10 couple of years back.  Check again at 

https://www.edfenergy.com/sites/default/files/2024-09/DM1904-Standard-(Variable)-Deemed-and-Welcome-ECO2020-and-Economy-10-Oct-24.pdf



Your Ovo rates are pretty flat on  the peak off peak balance 5p difference  - but theirs not a lot of day rate premium either vs regional flat rate unlike other suplliers multirate deals either.


My EM e10 rates at EOn are currently 29.633 peak, 16.809p off and 56.624 standing charge.

Edf if could (they wouldnt quote me years ago when 1st went e10 - only eon for legacy only and sp for new did  - it seemed maybe more regionally fragmented in those days)  switch for EM DD rates 34.42p peak and 13.59p off peak would be cheaper in winter marginal in summer and cheaper overall annual mix..

What is your e10 off peak arrangement - I'm in one of the regions with split 10 hrs - 12-5am , 1-4 pm and 8-10pm (so will be putting a washing on and lunch in oven pretty soon at off peak) - other regions e10 is just 1 10hr block iirc.

Thtc was variable length of time 5hr -12hr weather dept in winter - not sure if split or single continuous block restricted circuit times - and tge heating rate on a second meter applied only to heating iirc my uncles old setup. But there was iirc not  only the restricted but a non restricted off peak rate 24/7 circuit heating option which fires, panel, fan and towel rails etc could be wired to (that not sure he had).

Normal single meter e10 applies e10 rates to both normal sockets and old restricted circuits for nsh hw immersion - purely based on times.  Only 2 (normal, restricted storage heat) circuits not 3 circuits (normal , restricted storage type heat, 24/7 heat) potentially available with thtc.


What sort of heating do you have - if modern hhr nsh e7 might also be a cheaper bet as cheaper than e10 on average normally and even in Scotland if sized properly for colder average temps the charge may last.

If a central boiler or  heat pump Cosy octopus might  be an option.  [One poster suggested they might accept other all electric - it's smart 8 hrs 3 low price periods but need to avoid 4-7 iirc peak rate  - and not sure about meter alcs for restricted circuit either if did accept nsh.]

steelbru

Thanks for detailed reply Scott.

Wow, those EDF rates are quite different, being a lot cheaper off-peak, and a quite a bit more expensive standard. I think I would save quite a bit with those rates given my usage. Will investigate further.

OVO's E10 times are 04:30-07:30, 13:30-16:30, 20:30-0030
It's Dimplex Quantum storage heaters I have. I'm in all day, so although I don't know for sure, I'd be wary of moving to E7 in case the storage heaters "ran out" by evening time. The top ups during the day in winter give peace of mind.

Before on THTC it was variable times, weather dependant, and 2 separate circuits, only storage heaters and immersion on off-peak circuit. Now I get all electricity at the cheap rates during the 10 hours, so saving some on general use in the afternoon and evening session, although as you noticed the difference between the 2 rates is not huge with OVO.

Scot_39

Quantums - later generation at least - have some detailed logging - including the total kW charge used over last iirc 7 days

Yes - its history screen 2 - in the G6/G7 series - see

https://lms.gdhvacademy.com/mod/book/view.php?id=1315&chapterid=500

The problem is you will have to wait until your coldest periods - to see what the limit of your use is.

In theory if divide that by max charge power (anything up to 3.3kW for the largest 150 iirc ) - you might be able to have an idea what your min off peak hours need actually might be.

I have E10 - but never ever use the in theory 70kWh+ for heating (10x my 3 - 1 large 2 medium - so 10x NSH 7kW input power draw when charging).  

But as mine are old and lossy - I have stayed with E10 and my 3 off peak periods - to run them likely far colder at peak than would have to on E7 - and so get a smoother room temp profile (*).   I dont think I'd be NSH store limited at 7hrs charge (7x7.1 = c50kWh).

(*) A neighbour who switched to E7 for cheaper rates and cost in theory with same models (original build fit manual dial type c25 yrs ago) - ran into the too warm AM or too cold by evening trap - and was using plug ins at E7 peak rates by early evening after moving to cheaper E7 rates - so saved nothing - paid more. So much so they ended up fitting at time new non RF Quantums after 1st winter (and iirc 2 100s - same as replaced old 2 1.7xkW input in their hallways - in their living room to replace the old 3.6kWh input one) - as they were retired in 70s and wanted to be sure of 21C all day and no peak use.

Ildhund

There are thousands, potentially hundreds of thousands, of customers in this situation (e.g. coming off THTC and on to E7, E9 or E10). The number of variables is staggering -

• number, type, size and age of NSHs 
• type of water heater and associated controls
• other heating apparatus formerly running at a lower Heating rate 
• other power-hungry electrical appliances: cooker, washer, dishwasher, dryer, dehumidifier, even hoover
• lifestyle: time of getting up and going to bed, daytime activity levels at home, acceptable degree of comfort
• number, age and degree of infirmity of occupants 
• financial vulnerability  
• other things I can't think of ATM

There is no way for anyone to compile and decode all this information and work out how best to configure the new arrangement. I reckon it's going to be a case of careful observation of times, temperatures and electricity consumption over a period of days or weeks before any sort of optimum arrangement can be decided upon. Many customers won't have a clue how to go about this, so perhaps there's a need for a corps of clued-up advisors to visit customers who need advice several times in the first few months after migration. I can't see that Ofgem's newly-instituted taskforce has considered the need for this specific sort of support.

Scot_39

Given the slow rate of replacement to date - the Task Force is possibly well overdue.

But from memory - Ofgem - certainly in past in my experience has set a relatively low bar for replacements - "working heating and hot water" I suspect even now may be interpreted purely as still gets power for both.

I know complex metering is a relatively small proportion of the 24m homes in UK - but that's arguably exactly the sort of group that needs protecting from markets.  And often a group who are paying the most to heat - given electric far more expensive than gas.

Given smart meters existed that could in theory support complex tariffs / multiple split wiring systems like THTC (there were at least 2 7 port secure liberty models - 114 smets1 / 116 smets2 iirc -  and from memory one of those even specifically mentioned THTC support in their literature) - there is no technical reason why suitable meters could not be produced today by others.

Scot_39

(Removed by Forum Team)

They are probably just looking at it being classed as meter profile class 2 as a mulirate supply.

Not even looking after the other coding that give far more specific informatiin on actual off peak times.

And those often Don reflect when people switch to flat rate billing on multirate meters.

And there isn't any technical reason for meters not to support e10 - it's a supplier offer simplification - not a technical limitation.  And sadly Ofgem do not insist they do so.

Despite it being an ideal tariff to avoid current typical daily peaks - like breakfast morning shower mini peak and early evening 4-7pm 1/2 htly peak rates.  As my e10 hrs 12-5, 1-4 and 8-10 regularly coincide with cheapest rates on Agile.  

And if many see a mpan profile class 2 - irrespective if user has seitched to a single rate tariff - a supllier will often simply default on line at any rate to economy 7 quote as that that is the only multirate tariff they offer at all or in some cases to new customers.  Only supporting likes of e10 on existing meters for legacy customers until those too are replaced.

EOn Next curiously may have rewarded their complex metering T&Cs - at a quick glance - iirc  it used to explicitly exclude support for my 3 off peak period e10 - only supporting one daily.  I may have saved a copy at home - will check when get home - if bus ever turns up.

Do Ovo still offer split econmy 9 - they used to support a smart meter version which was split 3 times a day.

Do EDF who still quote e10 regional price tables - still accept new customers on it or their e2020 variant maybe more suited to those out all day - there was a post maybe c18m ago now - saying managed to move from thtc to split - assuming 3 off peak daily if like mine - on e10 with them.

Last figure I saw on Ofgem website said e10 and other non rts complex meters were a tiny number - was it sub 100k of the c4m off gas grid homes.  Vs at time c900,000 rts and 2m plus on e7 tariff.

steelbru

I said in my original post that I was happy with Economy 10 and not looking to switch to E7. However I've been doing some sums to see whether I could in fact manage with 7 hours, and was wondering if anyone could validate my maths.
I have 3 storage heaters, 2 * Dimplex QM150 and an old Dimplex CXL12.
The QM150s are 3.3kW and capacity 23.1kWh, the CXL12 is 1.7kW and 11.9kWh, so I think my total storage heater capacity is 58.1 kWh, which I can get fully charged up in 7 hours of charging. Looking back over the last month at my online billing, my highest use day of off-peak has been 53kW in total, and this will have included an hour of the hot-water immersion, and general house use lights/etc during the daytime off-peak hours.
So my current thought is my storage heaters would be fine with 7 hours of off-peak. Does that sound right ? Note that it was mentioned above that the newer QM heaters have an usage screen that shows use, but mine is an older model that doesn't seem to have that.
Very tempted by the new Octopus Snug tarriff which gives 7 hours at 9p unit, inc vat (not sure if this is going up on 1st Jan), whereas I'm currently paying 21p off peak on OVO Economy 10 (peak rate on Snug is just 0.6p more expensive). I would lose a little on the daytime offpeak hours I currently get for general use, but Snug does do 1 hour in the afternoon. This has the potential to save me approx £1000 per year.

Gerry1

There seems to be little reason to use any of these heaters on E10 because they are all designed for E7.

E10 is essentially a relic from the 1970s and was mostly intended for simple underfloor heating which worked better with top ups in the afternoon and evening because there was no heat output control.  Storage heater capacity and insulation were both poor by today's standards, but electricity was cheap as chips then so it wasn't a problem.  They often used an eight hour 'White Meter' tariff but this soon gave way to E7.

Ildhund

While it may well be considerably cheaper to charge the storage heaters up overnight, there may be some 'comfort deficit'. There will always be heat leakage, probably a lot from the older heater, but less from the newer ones. It also depends a lot on your lifestyle; if there's no-one home during the day, there's no need to maintain your normal 'comfort' temperature all day. Heating for an hour or so in the morning and then after you get home would be a reasonable arrangement, so long as there's still enough charge left in the heaters. If someone's home all day, the heaters are likely to have run out of steam by early evening, making for a chilly experience when you settle down after supper. That's why Economy 10 will often suit: use the night and early afternoon offpeak slots to charge up, then for example use direct heating during the late evening slot at the same price. It will take a lot of observation and number-crunching over several days to find out what works best for comfort and for your wallet.   

I agree that OVO's E10 offpeak rate is disappointing, and there may be other suppliers who could do better. This will depend on the make and model of your meter and the region you live in.

steelbru

I am at home all day, hence why I looked back at my highest consumption day recently ( there was some really cold days here earlier in December ), thinking that if I had done the sums right then a full charge looks to be sufficient to last a whole day. I also have a wood burning stove as a top up.
When moving off of the THTC (Total Heating Total Control ) RTC tarriff, OVO recommended E10 when I said I was at home all day, without actually asking how many radiators and what size.
Yes, the old CXL heater does "leak" quite a bit overnight, but the new'ish QM ones are well insulated and little leakage.
I think I'll go for the switch, the savings will be so big, that even on the coldest days if I plug in a heater at peak rate for an hour or so, it will still be an overall high saving.