Plumber being taken to Court

DullGreyGuy

Getoffmycloud said:
they have suggested we instruct legal help as solicitors fees alone could be more than £20,000, which sent me into a bit of a panic because what if he does win the full £20,000 and then another £20,000 of solicitor fees on top would be horrible as I have no idea how we would pay that.

Sorry for the ramble, but any help or thoughts would be gratefully received.

Based on the value of the claim it is likely to be allocated to the Fast Track of the court; legal costs in this track are fixed based on the value of the award and at £20k they would be just over £4k from memory. 

The £11.5k has no chance but it is likely to still go into Fast Track rather than Small Track but that would reduce the legal fees to under £3k. 

I'd argue they cannot have a full refund and charge for remediation as the work included removing the old bathroom so paying someone to remove the tiles he did would be the same. Seems like something around £6k would be appropriate. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Getoffmycloud said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Thank you OP.

Which plasterboard was used and why does the customer feel it was the wrong type? I'd image the manufacturer has a detailed data sheet for the product stipulating the product specifications which might assist in providing some defence on that point. 

You say £4500 was paid, can you breakdown what that covered. I.e how much materials were supplied and left with the customer and how much was to cover labour. Also what was the total quote for the job and how much of that was for a) plasterboard b) tiles 3) labour for tiling. 

Getoffmycloud said:

 We then went away for a long weekend (the tiling was almost finished at this point) and when we got back the customer said he was going to re-tile the bathroom himself and when he was done he would call my husband back to re-fit the bathroom. 

Do you have proof of this or was it verbal? Do you know exactly what the customer is claiming is wrong with the tiling or is it just the plasterboard issue? 

Have you been given a breakdown of how a figure of £20,000 has been reached by the customer? 

Has the customer paid someone else to finish the job? 

I honestly don't know why he thinks it was the wrong plasterboard; he claims it wasn't waterproof, but we have sent evidence of the plasterboard used with an extract from their website which says it can be used in kitchens and bathrooms.

The £4,500 that was paid was a 50% deposit which he always takes upfront; this is to cover the costs of ordering the materials. The whole bathroom was ordered and the customer still has it. The total quote for the job was £9,000, but it was a verbal quote so wasn't broken down into how much was for each part of the job. I should have said that the customer purchased the tiles himself so the £9k was bathroom parts and labour only.

We don't have proof of the fact the customer said he would re-tile and then invite my husband back; it was only verbal.

The £20k is broken down as £4.5k that he paid my husband, £2k to remedy poor workmanship and remedy failure to properly install the bathroom, £1k to replace bathroom tiles that were poorly installed, £1k for damage to wall and ceiling and waste removal. The remaining £11.5k is for distress, inconvenience and loss of peace of mind. It also states in the letter that the customer expects to recover more than £10k, but not more than £20k

Thanks again OP.

It is a shame about a lot being verbal, but lets spin this around for a second and say the customer was here looking for advice.

If they said a job wasn't finished they would be told to find somebody else to finish the job (not the cheapest price but not over the top), deduct the original quote and claim the difference. 

If there was damage then yes obviously the cost of fixing this could be claimed.

If there was an aspect of the job where the customer claimed it wasn't good enough, they'd be told to seek an expert opinion and then claim the cost of removal and the work being done again.

So you sort of have to flip that. 

The customer isn't entitled to a free bathroom suite so some value should be reduced from their claim for that (or perhaps you counter claim I'm not sure). 

Regarding the plasterboard, burden of proof should be with the customer (as they are making the claim) so they need something to show that the plasterboard isn't waterproof/suitable that the court would believe above the word of the manufacturer. 

That leads to the tiling, if it's just the plasterboard issue if that is squashed then I don't see they have a claim for replacing the tiles, redoing the job or for claiming back the cost of the labour. 

If the ceiling was damaged then it should be fixed, you say your husband fixed the wall, does he have proof? If the answer is no you might have to concede on that point.

I don't know what the damage was so it's very hard to say if £1k is reasonable.

The customer could obviously claim the cost of materials for which they'd have a receipt, if they paid someone to do any of this work then they may have a claim for that depending on how the court views the plasterboard and tiling issues but if the customer has done the work themselves and are claiming for their time I don't think they are going to get paid for that.

The money for distress sounds nonsense to me but there are various damages for breach of contract which are not covered/well known on here so I don't think anyone here can say what would be awarded (but £11.5k is just silly IMO).

In terms of consumer rights the consumer should usually require the trader to perform a repeat performance, you may be able to argue this opportunity wasn't given but equally it does sound as if your husband willingly allowed the customer to cancel the rest of the job by not pushing to finish it after returning from holiday. 

There are information requirements for all contract types, if your husband visited the home, gave a quote which the customer accepted after your husband left this is on-premises which doesn't require written information. 

If the customer agreed the quote on the visit before your husband left or this was agreed at a distance, (email, phone, text) this type of contract does require a fair bit of info in a durable medium which might count against your husband if it wasn't supplied (and the customer is aware of the requirements, which is doubtful). 

All in all it's a bit of mess and your husband needs to put together as much as possible to show, the plasterboard was correct, the tiling was carried out with due care and skill, question the costs being claimed best you can (I don't know if the customer has evidence of these costs which you can view as part of the claim) and perhaps concede on the £1k for the damage to the wall/ceiling. 

You asked about your home, I believe a charge can be placed on a property but I'm not sure if that forces a sale or simply means when sold the money is due, some one else may have more details on that but hopefully it's not as bad as it seems and the court will view, at least a large part, of the claim as excessive.

@DullGreyGuy seems to know a bit about the court processes and @A_Geordie might have some valuable input on this too, happy to chip in where I can with any other questions you have   

Getoffmycloud

I should also mention, all the costs the customer claims he has incurred, such as the £2k to have the bathroom rectified, the £1k for damage to wall and waste disposal, the costs of buying new tiles etc he has not supplied any evidence of this to date, although claims he does have evidence and it will be shown in court.

ciderboy2009

Have I got this right:

The customer was expecting to pay £9,000 for the bathroom to be installed.

They have actually paid:
- £4.5k deposit to your husband
- £2k to remedy poor workmanship and remedy failure to properly install the bathroom
- £1k to replace bathroom tiles that were poorly installed
- £1k for damage to wall and ceiling and waste removal.

So a total of £8,500.  Where is their loss?  They've actually saved £500.

Like others say - there is no way that they will get £11,500 for the reasons given.

Are you 100% sure that the message has actually come from a firm of solicitors?  It sounds like something dreamed up by somebody who has watched too much Judge Judy!

Ergates

What is the cost of the bathroom suite that your husband supplied ?

Getoffmycloud

DullGreyGuy said:

Getoffmycloud said:
they have suggested we instruct legal help as solicitors fees alone could be more than £20,000, which sent me into a bit of a panic because what if he does win the full £20,000 and then another £20,000 of solicitor fees on top would be horrible as I have no idea how we would pay that.

Sorry for the ramble, but any help or thoughts would be gratefully received.

Based on the value of the claim it is likely to be allocated to the Fast Track of the court; legal costs in this track are fixed based on the value of the award and at £20k they would be just over £4k from memory. 

The £11.5k has no chance but it is likely to still go into Fast Track rather than Small Track but that would reduce the legal fees to under £3k. 

I'd argue they cannot have a full refund and charge for remediation as the work included removing the old bathroom so paying someone to remove the tiles he did would be the same. Seems like something around £6k would be appropriate. 

Thank you for your response. You are right it has been allocated to fast track; I didn't realise the legal fees were so high for fast track. I thought it would be around £1k.

Getoffmycloud

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

If the ceiling was damaged then it should be fixed, you say your husband fixed the wall, does he have proof? If the answer is no you might have to concede on that point.  

Thank you so much for your reply; it was really helpful and reassuring.

Yes we have proof that the wall was fixed. Funnily enough the customer even supplied a picture of the repaired wall in his evidence, but we also have a signed witness statement from my husbands nephew, who helped him repair the wall.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Getoffmycloud said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

If the ceiling was damaged then it should be fixed, you say your husband fixed the wall, does he have proof? If the answer is no you might have to concede on that point.  

Thank you so much for your reply; it was really helpful and reassuring.

Yes we have proof that the wall was fixed. Funnily enough the customer even supplied a picture of the repaired wall in his evidence, but we also have a signed witness statement from my husbands nephew, who helped him repair the wall.

That's good to hear, you'd hope that would raise some credibility issues with the customer in general. 

Whatever the topic on here I think the party that articulates themselves best has a greater chance of success, a clear and concise defence, devoid of displaying any emotion or frustration would very hopefully see a claim like this limited to a very small amount for the cost of the ceiling.

If there is any mediation it might be prudent to offer something for the ceiling as an offer to settle. 

I'm not sure what happens with awarding legal fees where only part of a claim is awarded by the court, does anyone else?

saajan_12

Getoffmycloud said:

Thank you user1977 and voyager2022. We did think when the letter arrived that it was a ludicrous amount. We have had experience of a court case before (hence why my husband is no longer self-employed) and at the time we were told that the claim should be to the amount that would put you back in the position you would have been had the job been carried out correctly i.e. you can only claim for the costs of the repairs.

Well exactly, if he gets a refund then he's not paid husband so there's nothing to remediate. If there's arguments over the quality of the work, then he can claim for the cost to remediate, but then he has a functioning bathroom now so there's no refund due. Can't have both. 

Getoffmycloud said:

We also thought the solicitor was crazy to have allowed his client to submit such a claim, but now he is sending these emails suggesting we will have to pay back the whole £20k plus the same in legal expenses, I did panic.

No, the solicitor will send whatever for a fee (to an extent) and the idea is to scare you into settling a little higher, so they don't need to go through court and actually prove their claims. 
Even the legal expenses is at the judge's discretion. First they have to substantially win their claim. Then the use of the solicitor has to be reasonable - eg if the legitimate part of the claim was £5k and the remainder was obviously frivolous, then it doesn't make sense to spend £20k in legals to chase this when it could have been relatively low cost in small claims. 

saajan_12

ciderboy2009 said:

Have I got this right:

The customer was expecting to pay £9,000 for the bathroom to be installed.

They have actually paid:
- £4.5k deposit to your husband
- £2k to remedy poor workmanship and remedy failure to properly install the bathroom
- £1k to replace bathroom tiles that were poorly installed
- £1k for damage to wall and ceiling and waste removal.

So a total of £8,500.  Where is their loss?  They've actually saved £500.

Well arguably they still need to get the actual bathroom installed (my read was the £2k is the labour to remedy the tiling, not to actually install the sanitaryware. 

But agree in principle they were due to pay £9k, so until the costs including repairs get to that point, there's no claim. If OP's husband was charging a higher price than what the customer can now get is irrelevant.