Can I get my money back from a property course that I haven't signed a contract for?

Wellz

Aylesbury_Duck said:

To get any meaningful help you're going to have to tell us what business this is, how you've been "recruited" and what your status is (e.g. sales consultant, agent, self-employed associate, franchisee, etc) how much you paid and by what method, when you entered into the contract and when the first service started.

Otherwise, we're all just guessing.

So the course I purchased is from the website www.zerotopropertyhero.com.

How this person describes the business, is bascially a way to hand hold people into property, where you as the "consumer" as the contract states, provide a minimum of x numbers for the trainer to call and get a deal with home owners who are renting their property to not only rent them out but buy them down line. And you would have to send a spreadsheet of these numbers to him prior to the group session.

How it started:

Watched the owner of this website being interviewed on youtube by a podcast. Thought this person was sound and at the end he explained he explained if anyone wanted to reach out to him and get more information/join him to contact him via social media. So I did.

Reached out via instagram on Monday 14th October to get his help, he responded quite quick and sent a calandaly invite and we scheduled a zoom call that evening, he told me what was included and I said I would like to go away and think about it and he asked why? Given that he's got a No.1 selling book and has many success stories and that he's not charging how others are being in the thousands... etc.. the usual spiel to get someone to sign up there and then.

In the end we agreed to have the conversation again that same week on Thursday via zoom, as I used this time to make up my mind on whether to join or not - no money was given that Monday, but he sent an email which was more so a "Welcome" email; of what the course would entail along with links to videos and websites of testimonials of people who he has helped and his own information/e-books.

Thursday 17th comes along (coincidently it's the day of the first call with a group of others who are also on this course), and he calls my mobile phone to ask me what my decision was on taking up this course, I tell him I've decided to go along with the course and pay in full which is £1997 apparently discounted according to the first email he sends me of £5997.

As he's on the phone with me and after I have verbally said yes, he sends me another email with the bank information to send this payment which contained the business name, sort code and account number. I make this payment right there and then whilst on the phone to him and we end the call. Soon after the call he sends me further information as a reply to the first email as a "congratulations" email with the zoom link and pretty much regurgitating what was said in the "welcome" email and that the call will commence Thursday evening from the 17th at said time and will be used for every week and another zoom link for every Friday as a Q&A session.

He then responds to that same email again to also confirm that we will have a 30 minute coaching call after the group call is finished.

During this attended call, he would be calling the numbers provided to him by the attendees who would have given him these numbers prior to the session and the call would start off with "If the property is still available.... I am looking to rent out this property for myself and my "partner(s)" long term..." and then midway would switch the conversation and say "wondering if you were looking to sell the property down the line as we don't have the money to buy it upfront and if we could sublet this property out till when said agreement" one of which, as I mentioned above was a woman who caught on to him quite quickly, was very angry and grilled into him and asking why he was being dishonest from the start and to not bother sending any information about himself at all.

It was also explained that even if we had the agreement in place to buy said property later down the line, we could just back out of the property anyways and not buy it.

He also explained during the call that he wasn't lying to anyone because "technically" we are his "partners" who are renting/buying the accommadation.

After the call, I had my 1 to 1 with him where he explained how he finds these numbers, which is on gumtree. As for us we are to place these numbers in spreadsheets and send them over to him prior to the call. This is all a numbers game he explains.

Friday 18th, I am then sent this contract from this company via docusign with all the terms and conditions as a consumer and him as the trainer. Not signed and declined.

I don't know exactly what my (or the others) positions are in this course with him outside of someone who's consuming this content, which could be anything and anyone.

Aylesbury_Duck

Wellz said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

To get any meaningful help you're going to have to tell us what business this is, how you've been "recruited" and what your status is (e.g. sales consultant, agent, self-employed associate, franchisee, etc) how much you paid and by what method, when you entered into the contract and when the first service started.

Otherwise, we're all just guessing.

So the course I purchased is from the website www.zerotopropertyhero.com.

How this person describes the business, is bascially a way to hand hold people into property, where you as the "consumer" as the contract states, provide a minimum of x numbers for the trainer to call and get a deal with home owners who are renting their property to not only rent them out but buy them down line. And you would have to send a spreadsheet of these numbers to him prior to the group session.

How it started:

Watched the owner of this website being interviewed on youtube by a podcast. Thought this person was sound and at the end he explained he explained if anyone wanted to reach out to him and get more information/join him to contact him via social media. So I did.

Reached out via instagram on Monday 14th October to get his help, he responded quite quick and sent a calandaly invite and we scheduled a zoom call that evening, he told me what was included and I said I would like to go away and think about it and he asked why? Given that he's got a No.1 selling book and has many success stories and that he's not charging how others are being in the thousands... etc.. the usual spiel to get someone to sign up there and then. So far so normal.  Typical sales tactics and nothing unlawful or misleading there.

In the end we agreed to have the conversation again that same week on Thursday via zoom, as I used this time to make up my mind on whether to join or not - no money was given that Monday, but he sent an email which was more so a "Welcome" email; of what the course would entail along with links to videos and websites of testimonials of people who he has helped and his own information/e-books.  Sounds like this email contained information about what you'd get for your money.

Thursday 17th comes along (coincidently it's the day of the first call with a group of others who are also on this course), and he calls my mobile phone to ask me what my decision was on taking up this course, I tell him I've decided to go along with the course and pay in full which is £1997 apparently discounted according to the first email he sends me of £5997. Again, a typical sales tactic out of the double-glazing salesbook, nothing unlawful.

As he's on the phone with me and after I have verbally said yes, he sends me another email with the bank information to send this payment which contained the business name, sort code and account number. I make this payment right there and then whilst on the phone to him and we end the call. Okay, so paying by bank transfer rules out any sort of help from your card company should there be anything wrong.

Soon after the call he sends me further information as a reply to the first email as a "congratulations" email with the zoom link and pretty much regurgitating what was said in the "welcome" email and that the call will commence Thursday evening from the 17th at said time and will be used for every week and another zoom link for every Friday as a Q&A session. That sounds very much like your contract has been formed.  You've agreed to pay a sum for something that was explained to you and have had a form of receipt.

He then responds to that same email again to also confirm that we will have a 30 minute coaching call after the group call is finished.

During this attended call, he would be calling the numbers provided to him by the attendees who would have given him these numbers prior to the session and the call would start off with "If the property is still available.... I am looking to rent out this property for myself and my "partner(s)" long term..." and then midway would switch the conversation and say "wondering if you were looking to sell the property down the line as we don't have the money to buy it upfront and if we could sublet this property out till when said agreement" one of which, as I mentioned above was a woman who caught on to him quite quickly, was very angry and grilled into him and asking why he was being dishonest from the start and to not bother sending any information about himself at all.

It was also explained that even if we had the agreement in place to buy said property later down the line, we could just back out of the property anyways and not buy it.

He also explained during the call that he wasn't lying to anyone because "technically" we are his "partners" who are renting/buying the accommadation.

After the call, I had my 1 to 1 with him where he explained how he finds these numbers, which is on gumtree. As for us we are to place these numbers in spreadsheets and send them over to him prior to the call. This is all a numbers game he explains.  In my judgement, the group call and 1-2-1 call afterwards all suggest the service you paid for has started.

Friday 18th, I am then sent this contract from this company via docusign with all the terms and conditions as a consumer and him as the trainer. Not signed and declined.

I don't know exactly what my (or the others) positions are in this course with him outside of someone who's consuming this content, which could be anything and anyone.

Thanks.  Some comments in bold, among your text above.

In summary, if you want a full refund you need to ask for one.  I don't think you're entitled to one because you had ample opportunity to understand what the service on offer was, willingly paid for it and then undertook the first stage of the service.  What you might have entitlement to is a partial refund because you've only undergone an initial part of the service.

What about the contract wording itself?  Is there anything in there that contradicts the information you were given prior to agreeing to pay?

Wellz

Thanks for your explanation. As you've said, I'd be grateful to even get a partial refund given the participation already which I outlined in my second email back to the company - as the first email requested a full one. If they even allow it.

As for the contract and it's wording, it's best for me to copy and paste and I can underline things to with changing of  mind based on certain circumstances. You may have to zoom in as it's a bit jam packed, I guess as any other contract... but if there's a specific part that you want to see, I can add that too.

I've blurred out emails and numbers as best as I could in this section of the contract and whatever might be personal to myself or the company, but let me know your thoughts. My earlier comments about rights to cancellation, is pretty much what's outlined by the red line.

Okell

@Wellz -  my understanding of the law is that you can cancel this contract within 14 days of entering into it under The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

However, to the extent that you have used any of this "service" within the 14 day cancellation period, you may not be entitled to a full refund and may only be entitled to a partial pro-rata refund depending on how much of the service you have used before cancellation.

I'm not going to spend time reading the T&Cs you have copied and pasted - you should have read and understood those before committing to this.

You really need to read and to understand para. 36 of the regulations linked to above.  Read that para. and everything that it references to.

To be perfectly honest I don't even understand what you are buying here, and it's not something I would spend £2k on let alone £6k

Wellz

Okell said:

@Wellz -  my understanding of the law is that you can cancel this contract within 14 days of entering into it under The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

However, to the extent that you have used any of this "service" within the 14 day cancellation period, you may not be entitled to a full refund and may only be entitled to a partial pro-rata refund depending on how much of the service you have used before cancellation.

I'm not going to spend time reading the T&Cs you have copied and pasted - you should have read and understood those before committing to this.

You really need to read and to understand para. 36 of the regulations linked to above.  Read that para. and everything that it references to.

To be perfectly honest I don't even understand what you are buying here, and it's not something I would spend £2k on let alone £6k

If the contract was provided to me before I paid and not the day after I paid as I mentioned in my earlier comments, then I would have been more cautious about what I was buying into. Unfortunately that was not my case, so I couldn't "read and understand" this contract before commiting to this.

Thanks for your input.

eskbanker

Wellz said:

If the contract was provided to me before I paid and not the day after I paid as I mentioned in my earlier comments, then I would have been more cautious about what I was buying into. Unfortunately that was not my case, so I couldn't "read and understand" this contract before commiting to this.

That's one way of looking at it, but of course you could have simply refused to pay until you'd seen the terms?

Okell

Wellz said:

Okell said:

@Wellz -  my understanding of the law is that you can cancel this contract within 14 days of entering into it under The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

However, to the extent that you have used any of this "service" within the 14 day cancellation period, you may not be entitled to a full refund and may only be entitled to a partial pro-rata refund depending on how much of the service you have used before cancellation.

I'm not going to spend time reading the T&Cs you have copied and pasted - you should have read and understood those before committing to this.

You really need to read and to understand para. 36 of the regulations linked to above.  Read that para. and everything that it references to.

To be perfectly honest I don't even understand what you are buying here, and it's not something I would spend £2k on let alone £6k

If the contract was provided to me before I paid and not the day after I paid as I mentioned in my earlier comments, then I would have been more cautious about what I was buying into. Unfortunately that was not my case, so I couldn't "read and understand" this contract before commiting to this.

Thanks for your input.

So you paid before reading the T&Cs.  OK.

What you still need to read and to understand is this:

Okell said:

@Wellz -  my understanding of the law is that you can cancel this contract within 14 days of entering into it under The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

However, to the extent that you have used any of this "service" within the 14 day cancellation period, you may not be entitled to a full refund and may only be entitled to a partial pro-rata refund depending on how much of the service you have used before cancellation...

... You really need to read and to understand para. 36 of the regulations linked to above.  Read that para. and everything that it references to...

Because I don't understand what service you bought I don't understand how much of the service you have used during the 14 day cancellation period - and it's that which determines how much of a refund you are entitled to if you cancel within the 14 day window



[Edit:  A complicating matter that you might have is if this "service" is for the supply of digital content on a non-tangible medium, in which case you may not be entitled to any refund at all once digital content has been supplied to you. 

But that depends on whether (1) you expressly asked for the service to begin and (2) you expressly acknowledged that you would lose the right to cancel by asking for it to begin in the cancealltion period. 

I don't think you have entered into a contract for the supply of digital content on a non-tangible medium, but I'm not sure because I don't understand what this service is or exactly what you've signed up to. 

I suggest you read para 37 of the regulations as well as para 36] 

Wellz

eskbanker said:

Wellz said:

If the contract was provided to me before I paid and not the day after I paid as I mentioned in my earlier comments, then I would have been more cautious about what I was buying into. Unfortunately that was not my case, so I couldn't "read and understand" this contract before commiting to this.

That's one way of looking at it, but of course you could have simply refused to pay until you'd seen the terms?

To be honest, I know a lot of things come under contract and you see it first hand before you pay for anything. Mainly large corporations that I know of operate in this manner.

I just didn't expect something like this to come under contract and to be given after the fact. 

Is every single small or near enough non-existant business operating in this way? And if they should be operating in this way, then shouldn't that be invalidating how they conduct business in general? Who's governing what should be and shouldn't be done, outside of large corporations? I wouldn't know and have never known. 

This is a first for me and now living this first hand experience, I won't be doing any business with anyone of this manner cause heck, from what I'm learning now anything goes once a payment has been made! Right? If the course provider tells me to do something unconscionable just cause we have a legally binding contract just based on payment and nothing else... where are my rights? "You have none, so deal with it."

I can admit, yes, a mistake was made on my part to pay money to someone who actually does business in a dishonest and misleading manner - if only I could see this first hand, but if nothing of the sort is presented to me and I'm unhappy/uncomfortable with the service then outside of the law, I would just assume that I can speak with the provider and express this and come to an agreement of at least some sort of a refund; if any.

Wellz

Okell said:

What you still need to read and to understand is this:

Okell said:

@Wellz -  my understanding of the law is that you can cancel this contract within 14 days of entering into it under The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

However, to the extent that you have used any of this "service" within the 14 day cancellation period, you may not be entitled to a full refund and may only be entitled to a partial pro-rata refund depending on how much of the service you have used before cancellation...

... You really need to read and to understand para. 36 of the regulations linked to above.  Read that para. and everything that it references to...

Because I don't understand what service you bought I don't understand how much of the service you have used during the 14 day cancellation period - and it's that which determines how much of a refund you are entitled to if you cancel within the 14 day window



[Edit:  A complicating matter that you might have is if this "service" is for the supply of digital content on a non-tangible medium, in which case you may not be entitled to any refund at all once digital content has been supplied to you. 

But that depends on whether (1) you expressly asked for the service to begin and (2) you expressly acknowledged that you would lose the right to cancel by asking for it to begin in the cancealltion period. 

I don't think you have entered into a contract for the supply of digital content on a non-tangible medium, but I'm not sure because I don't understand what this service is or exactly what you've signed up to. 

I suggest you read para 37 of the regulations as well as para 36] 

Thank you for highlighting this.

(Under Para 36) What's considered an express request? Is it me just saying yes to an invite? 

Under Para 37 I can understand that this may be considered "express consent" - do correct me if I am wrong, in anything I've said here.

For example, the course provider (over the phone after payment took place) asked me if I wanted to join the group call that day of payment and I said yes. 

I did not ask the provider to join the call that day, likewise with the 1-2-1 call (both on zoom) that I had after, he had asked me when I would like to have the session, I suggested a time, he agreed and we had our 1-2-1 call after the group call. I did not express that I wanted to have this 1-2-1 session with him in any way, for that day or the future. (again over the phone)

In addition, there was no acknowledgement provided that once I join said group call or 1-2-1, I would be losing my right to cancel. This was not verbally said by the provider nor written in any of the emails sent to me on the day of Thursday 17th.

I'm just going based off of Para 36 Section 1(a), 2(a) & (b) and 6.

As this was on zoom, I'm assuming this sits under non-tangible medium - Para 37 I would have fulfiled section 1 (a) but not (b) given what I mentioned just above but also Section 4 (b) as there was no acknowledgement provided to me on the right to cancel being void once the service is provided.