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Care homes fees and £23250 limit

In a nutshell my mother in law is in a care home aged 89 and has been for 5/6 years. She has dementia and receives some extra money for this.  Currently paying for her own fees with some help from the state. She has reached the £23,250 limit and we have been told rightly or wrongly that this money can no longer been used to fund her care. Funeral plan already paid for. 
There is a short fall between her pension and LA fees. My sister in law has power of attorney on her bank account.  The brother and sister are not in a position to fund the shortfall and have again been told, rightly or wrongly, that if they tried, this could impact their own inheritance tax implications.  
Can they used the £23250 to fund her care? and when it gets to £14000 would we get any further help from LA?  Citizens Advice couldn't answer the question nor could a Solicitor.
Can't get through to Age Concern. Where else do I go for advice?
Any money left after her death would come to the brother and sister.  Both are happy to use this money to fund mum's care, signing a letter if needed but have been told again rightly or wrongly that if they do 'they can be sued' by who I don't know.
Yes they could move her to a cheaper home but at that age the stress and confusion could kill her.
Any help and/or advice gratefully received.
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Comments

  • lisyloo
    lisyloo Posts: 29,998 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Just my opinion. I am not a lawyer.

    The first bit seems correct - she cannot fund her own "top up", this is because she is deemed to be unable to afford it.
    At £23250 in part and at £14250 in full.

    It's common for someone else to pay a top up. I don't know if paying a bill is considered a gift for IHT purposes but that's not normally a major consideration for younger people (IHT tails off to zero after 7 years).
    A moot point anyway if they can't afford it.

    Have you asked the care home if they can take her as a local authority client? 
    i.e. lower their fees?
    Generally private clients pay more and cross subsidise the LA ones constrained by LA budgets.
    Some homes will not kick out long standing clients as they know very well the stress it will cause.

    Next you go back to the local authority and advocate for them to increase the payments to fund her there.
    Your arguments would be around the fact that the stress could kill her.
    We have won this twice so it can happen, but you have to fight and go to appeal.
    You won't get further help from the LA unless you fight for them to go above their normal budget.
    The budget doesn't rise because your mum can't top up.

    The last option is she gets moved somewhere within the local authority budget.

    The bit about your brother and sister spending their future inheritance that they haven't got yet is nonsense.
    This is not their money - it's hers to be used whilst she's alive for trips, glasses, clothes, cds, nice toiletries, jewelry, shampoo & set, manicures etc.
    She is deemed to be penniless by the state at £14250 and not able to pay in full below £23250, so the state have said she can't afford to pay it. so you sister going against that official position would be deemed to be wrong.

    Who would sue her? 
    theoretically the brother could sue her for spending his inheritance if they fall out.
    theoretically if she divorces her ex could sue as they will get a smaller settlement.
    There may be scenarios where her children could sue her.
    If she later claims benefits she could be stopped benefits as this money should have been hers.
    All theoretical but these things do happen.

    But what happens then when the money runs out?
    You're only kicking the can down the road and will face the problem again when it runs out.

    If it were me I'd first talk to the home about taking her as a local authority client.
    Next I'd talk to the local authority about them paying to keep here there. Expect to have to fight hard for this, but you can win if the fees are reasonable i.e. it's a fairly normal care home. If she's currently at the Ritz then you won't have a chance. i.e. even at appeal and with a strong case there's still only so far the LA can go with their budgets.

  • elsien
    elsien Posts: 35,044 Forumite
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    edited 18 October 2024 at 10:51AM
    Also to add, if she has capacity she chooses where to live within the available options.
    If she lacks capacity and  there is only a power of attorney for finances and not for health and welfare then family are not the decision makers as to where she would live if she has to move. They must be consulted as part of the best interests process, and can express disagreement if necessary,  but the final decision would sit with the local authority, under the Mental Capacity Act. 
    So you need to check which LPA are in place.  
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
  • lisyloo
    lisyloo Posts: 29,998 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    We didn't have LPA, we won appeal twice.
    Firstly to get MIL into a decent home close to family. 
    Second time to get FIL in the same home when they wanted to put him 15 miles away from her after 60 years of marriage.

    I think your argument is quite strong after she's been there 5/6 years.
  • elsien
    elsien Posts: 35,044 Forumite
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    You don't need LPA to appeal on someone's behalf. Just pointing out that where there isn't a health and welfare LPA people sometimes think that as "next of kin" they still get to make decisions for people, when in law that isn't the case, although their views on the person's behalf are a significant part of the best interests process. And any disagreements/challenges should be fully explored as part of that process. 
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
  • lisyloo
    lisyloo Posts: 29,998 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    yes, ultimately it's down to the local authority (unless the home will agree to take her at the local authority rate).
    All you can do is fight/appeal their decision.

    If the daughter takes money that she should explicitly not be taking then she opens herself up claims of wrongdoing and it's very clear this should not be paid by the person themselves.
  • pollypenny
    pollypenny Posts: 29,414 Forumite
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    If her assets are down to 23,000 surely there will be little to inherit, anyway. 
    Member #14 of SKI-ers club

    Words, words, they're all we have to go by!.

    (Pity they are mangled by this autocorrect!)
  • lisyloo
    lisyloo Posts: 29,998 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 22 October 2024 at 8:29AM
    If her assets are down to 23,000 surely there will be little to inherit, anyway. 
    To some that's not "little", but the point is that its her money primarily whilst she's alive to spend as she wishes (or in her best interests)
    Something as cheap as CDs, bingo, the odd trip, hand massages etc. could make a big different to her quality of life.
    It shouldn't just be viewed solely as a future inheritance.
  • ian16527
    ian16527 Posts: 232 Forumite
    Fifth Anniversary 100 Posts Name Dropper
    My Dad is in a similar position. He hasnt had a Financial assessment yet, but will run out of money , i.e below £23250 next year.
    I assumed between £23250 and £14000, the LA would pay some and he would have to fund the rest. After this the LA would fund but reading above that is not the case.

    He was on the LA rate of £799 per week, for the first 6 weeks, then on the self fund rate of £1040 per week.
    We had to pay the LA the first 6 weeks back. 

    Can the extra be made up from his pension or do the LA take this money into account?

    I will have to discuss this with the home, although I know there are some residents on LA funding as someone who is disabled with a stroke was moved there from another home due to the fees
  • elsien
    elsien Posts: 35,044 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    edited 23 October 2024 at 7:29PM
    He will have to pay a tariff between the 14 and 23k as per the link in the second post.
    He can’t fund the difference from his own money. 

    Did he have assets other than his property? Because otherwise  I’m wondering why the initial 12 week disregard didn’t apply?
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
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