Amex/PayPal/eBay Chargeback?

lisyloo

efunc said:

Thanks for that. And yes, that's the concern. However I have to take Amex at their word that the end of the formal process is December 5th at which point I'll know either way. I just wonder what the actual process is that PayPal is following that makes this all so slow. Surely if it's so cut and dry they would just reject the claim and say it exceeded 30 days so there's nothing for them to bother investigating. 

It might be that they have other things in their pipeline as well as your case.

efunc

This whole business remains a bit broken and confusing in my view, but looks like it's all sorted now, but who knows!

The Dispute status in my Amex account is now set to 'Closed', with the following details:

Resolution Date

22 Oct, 2024

Dispute Reason:

The goods received were damaged or not as described

Status Detail

We have completed our investigation. Please refer to the communication we sent.

Confusing since I haven't received any correspondence, and am not sure if 'Closed' is really closed, or it can go back to 'In progress again, like it did before. Promising though, and no word on whether they want the disputed MacBook off me...

MattMattMattUK

efunc said:

This whole business remains a bit broken and confusing in my view, but looks like it's all sorted now, but who knows!

The Dispute status in my Amex account is now set to 'Closed', with the following details:

Resolution Date

22 Oct, 2024

Dispute Reason:

The goods received were damaged or not as described

Status Detail

We have completed our investigation. Please refer to the communication we sent.

Confusing since I haven't received any correspondence, and am not sure if 'Closed' is really closed, or it can go back to 'In progress again, like it did before. Promising though, and no word on whether they want the disputed MacBook off me...

It could, PayPal could also take legal action against you to recover the funds reclaimed by Amex. So yes the Amex part is probably over, the whole issue may or may not be. 

efunc

Thanks, but that I would love to see. PayPal would have an interesting time arguing that since I'd sent them the Apple Report stating that the MacBook had legacy water damage and required repair outside of warranty, hence PayPal should have recovered the funds from the seller, as per their money back guarantee. 

I wonder what the Amex communication says about it. It's been a week and nothing yet, so I'll probably have to call them to enquire.

MattMattMattUK

efunc said:

Thanks, but that I would love to see.

You would probably not "love" to lose, which is what many in your position have reported when PayPal has taken them to court. 

efunc said:

PayPal would have an interesting time arguing that since I'd sent them the Apple Report stating that the MacBook had legacy water damage and required repair outside of warranty, hence PayPal should have recovered the funds from the seller, as per their money back guarantee. 

It always depends on the way the process has been applied specifically, but PayPal tend to apply it to the letter, if it was covered by their money back guarantee it would have normally been recovered, quite a few transactions end up outside that guarantee for various reasons and that is where people come unstuck. You yourself confirm that your claim was outside their money back guarantee period. 

efunc said:

I wonder what the Amex communication says about it. It's been a week and nothing yet, so I'll probably have to call them to enquire.

They will have raised a chargeback with PayPal, the understanding on here is that PayPal often do a basic dispute, but if the card provider follows it through then PayPal do not bother with the paperwork at that stage and just go legal against the consumer once the chargeback has been processed. 

efunc

I see, thanks for the info. I guess time will tell then. I will still challenge any claim though because this was a legitimate case of buying something falsely advertised which became unusable and the seller should have been held to account for this.

MattMattMattUK

efunc said:

I see, thanks for the info. I guess time will tell then. I will still challenge any claim though because this was a legitimate case of buying something falsely advertised which became unusable and the seller should have been held to account for this.

Your issue there is you did not go after the seller, you went after PayPal, an intermediary. You had the choice to go after the seller via the courts, but instead went out of PayPal using the Amex chargeback procedure, that is where people tend to come unstuck against PayPal when this ends up in court. PayPal are not obliged to refund you outside of the terms and conditions they offer as part of their 30 day money back guarantee. Make sure you keep an eye out for letters from PayPal as it does seem from experience of people on here they will likely take legal action, although it might take a few months for that to happen. 

Also if you have a PayPal account be prepared for that to be closed and expect them to potentially refuse to process transactions you try to place going forward. 

born_again

efunc said:

I see, thanks for the info. I guess time will tell then. I will still challenge any claim though because this was a legitimate case of buying something falsely advertised which became unusable and the seller should have been held to account for this.

@MattMattMattUK
They will have raised a chargeback with PayPal, the understanding on here is that PayPal often do a basic dispute, but if the card provider follows it through then PayPal do not bother with the paperwork at that stage and just go legal against the consumer once the chargeback has been processed. 

That is correct in the way they now deal with these cases.

As to above quote. As you did not purchase from PayPal then it is a lot harder to defend. PP only pass the money on. This was the reason they used to use before with chargebacks. Which could not be contested. Now they have reversed how they process chargebacks. They simply take the legal route to recover their lost funds. 

efunc

Well it's a bit inaccurate to suggest that PayPal are entirely invisible and 'only pass the money on'. They clearly do more than that and sell their service with a Buyer Protection incentive. If they really take buyer protection seriously then they should at least take the time to look at individual cases and give them consideration. In my case they didn't and closed my claim without asking the seller to provide any counter response or evidence. For them to say they only pass money on without a care about whether it's fraudulent or not would be a stretch in our financial and legal system surely? Amex ar least did take my concerns seriously. I understand that I missed the 30 day deadline by two days, but the seller also delayed delivering the laptop to me by two weeks in the first place because he said he was tinkering with it and needed to screw the case back on! PayPal did little to look at the correspondence I supplied to determine when I actually received the MacBook.

In any case, if what you say is correct and I'll end up defending this in court I suspect I'll be significantly out of pocket due to the legal costs and with PayPal just citing their T&Cs and moving to a swift judgement. That being the case, are they likely to offer me the opportunity to settle the disputed amount first, before legal proceedings?

born_again

efunc said:

Well it's a bit inaccurate to suggest that PayPal are entirely invisible and 'only pass the money on'. They clearly do more than that and sell their service with a Buyer Protection incentive. If they really take buyer protection seriously then they should at least take the time to look at individual cases and give them consideration. In my case they didn't and closed my claim without asking the seller to provide any counter response or evidence. For them to say they only pass money on without a care about whether it's fraudulent or not would be a stretch in our financial and legal system surely? Amex ar least did take my concerns seriously. I understand that I missed the 30 day deadline by two days, but the seller also delayed delivering the laptop to me by two weeks in the first place because he said he was tinkering with it and needed to screw the case back on! PayPal did little to look at the correspondence I supplied to determine when I actually received the MacBook.

In any case, if what you say is correct and I'll end up defending this in court I suspect I'll be significantly out of pocket due to the legal costs and with PayPal just citing their T&Cs and moving to a swift judgement. That being the case, are they likely to offer me the opportunity to settle the disputed amount first, before legal proceedings?

It is exactly what they do. You pay them, they pass money to seller.

Pay Pal Buyer protection, like card chargebacks are a extra they provide, which they do not need to.