Amex/PayPal/eBay Chargeback?

efunc

Hi all, if anyone has any knowledge of the Amex Chargeback rules I would be grateful for any advice. I bought a used MacBook Pro on eBay for £605. It was sold with AppleCare Warranty until December 5th, so I was confident about going ahead.

After experiencing instability and intermittent shutdowns I finally booked it in with Apple for a diagnostic test. On the 5th October they found defects with the logic board and trackpad and that they would need to be replaced, but it was OK because the work was covered by AppleCare. I was satisfied that this was fine with me and the seller did not need to be told. Then some days later I received a follow up from Apple that in the lab they've discovered signs of previous liquid damage, and that was not covered, so if I want to go ahead I have to now pay for the repair.

At this point I went back to eBay with a request for refund, however the 30 day deadline had passed by two days, so it was rejected.

I then went and filed a claim with PayPal, but that was instantly decided in the seller's favour because of their 30 day deadline.

Finally I have gone to Amex card and made a disputed charge claim with all the case details. Amex say you can claim anytime within 120 days, but does anyone know if that includes 'used' items, or just new ones?

If it does include used items purchased on eBay, would they still be limited by PayPal's 30 day deadline? ie, if PayPal are satisfied that the charge is not disputed because it falls within their T&C's does Amex automatically find in favor of PayPal, rather than consider its own 120 day window?

Case timeline:

30th August Paid for MacBook

7th September Received MacBook (seller delayed sending it because they said they took it apart and then lost the screws and had ordered some replacements!)

23rd September Contacted Apple to arrange diagnostic report following intermittent instability

5th October Notified seller that the device could not be used without removing the seller’s Activation Lock. The MacBook was locked to their old account meaning it could be remotely disabled anytime and could never be fully operated by its new owner.

9th October Informed by Apple that the repair is not covered by warranty after all.

9th October Failing to obtain cooperation from seller filed a request for refund on eBay. This was rejected.

lisyloo

I don’t think it will work as you’ve broken the chain.
amex contract is with PayPal not with the retailer.

efunc

Yes, so PayPal will simply say that I didn't claim within their 30 day deadline and so there is no issue with the payment made? The only other recourse is to go to Apple and say that following diagnosis they said they'd repair it for free. Had they told me at that point that it was not covered by the AppleCare Warranty after all I would have made the PayPal claim and been within the 30 day window. I doubt Apple will consider any responsibility though

Voyager2002

Read the Ebay and PayPal T and Cs very very carefully.

The 30-day limit would apply to returns for most reasons, but this is an example of deliberate deception by the vendor. See if there is anything in the small print that might help you.

efunc

Thanks for the reply. I would give him the benefit of the doubt to a degree. There's no way of proving it's deliberate deception, and he will refute it. He possibly didn't know that the laptop is locked to his account. But the fact is only he can unlock it, and he's admitted he's tried and can't do because he can no longer get into his Apple ID. The CPU errors manifested over time because they're intermittent. Maybe he didn't experience them? He might even argue that I caused the liquid damage after he sold it, and I would have no defense against that.

In any case a flagship Apple MacBook Pro is an extremely complex device and it can take weeks to troubleshoot, re-install software and reset it multiple times before reaching any conclusions. I wish I'd been more conscious of the 30 day limit! I thought, at least PayPal was 90 days, but it appears not. I also thought the clock was ticking when you actually receive the item, not just pay for it. He took so many days to deliver it that that took away another week, and he delivered by hand so there's no confirmation of the date anyway.

Voyager2002

efunc said:

Thanks for the reply. I would give him the benefit of the doubt to a degree. There's no way of proving it's deliberate deception, and he will refute it. He possibly didn't know that the laptop is locked to his account. But the fact is only he can unlock it, and he's admitted he's tried and can't do because he can no longer get into his Apple ID. The CPU errors manifested over time because they're intermittent. Maybe he didn't experience them? He might even argue that I caused the liquid damage after he sold it, and I would have no defense against that.

In any case a flagship Apple MacBook Pro is an extremely complex device and it can take weeks to troubleshoot, re-install software and reset it multiple times before reaching any conclusions. I wish I'd been more conscious of the 30 day limit! I thought, at least PayPal was 90 days, but it appears not. I also thought the clock was ticking when you actually receive the item, not just pay for it. He took so many days to deliver it that that took away another week, and he delivered by hand so there's no confirmation of the date anyway.

When it comes to getting your money back, there can be no "benefit of the doubt". All that is certain is that he did not tell you about the water damage, meaning that the Apple warranty on which you placed so much reliance is in fact useless. And now, for the first time, you mention an issue about the computer being locked to his account rather than having been restored to factory settings. There are laws that protect you against this kind of thing, but enforcing them could be difficult.

Was the vendor registered as a business, or as a private seller?

Voyager2002

efunc said:

Yes, so PayPal will simply say that I didn't claim within their 30 day deadline and so there is no issue with the payment made? The only other recourse is to go to Apple and say that following diagnosis they said they'd repair it for free. Had they told me at that point that it was not covered by the AppleCare Warranty after all I would have made the PayPal claim and been within the 30 day window. I doubt Apple will consider any responsibility though

That is one avenue that is well worth exploring. In legal terms, following diagnosis they made an undertaking to you and relied on that undertaking. Now they have "changed their mind" and this has proved extremely costly for you.

efunc

Thanks again for your input. I will talk to Apple on Monday but don't hold up much hope. The seller was a private individual, not a business. The Activation Lock issue is an odd one and I didn't want the main issue to get bogged down in obscure technical details. But yes, I discovered that the Laptop is still locked to his account and neither myself or he can unlock it. I let him know this as soon as I realised on the 5th of October, so within a month of receiving it on the 7th September.

With the latest MacBooks the LogicBoard contains a T2 security chip. When you set boot up settings to 'Full Security' using Startup Manager (recommended) every change, update, install makes calls to the T2 chip, and you authorize it with your Apple ID. It prevents all sorts of hacking. I was using the MacBook initially without Full Security boot settings because of older software I was installing and configurations I wanted to make. I signed in with my Apple ID and added the MacBook to my list of devices and transferred the AppleCare to my ID etc. Everything was done using recommended procedures and it all seemed in order. Then before going to the AppleStore to get the MacBook diagnosed for CPU issues I decide to reset the OS and clear everything off the laptop. To do that though you have to put it back into Full Security mode. Having done that though it wouldn't let me boot up again without the seller's Apple ID and password. That's when I messaged him and he told me he didn't know how to get into it anymore and he's always had problems with Apple ID! And the conversation ended. I was still at day 28 but because Apple said when they replace the Logic Board because of the CPU errors it won't matter anymore - it'll be a new device ready to sign in with a new Apple ID, I thought I'd let this detail pass. But now this is a real issue because both Apple and the seller have trapped me in an impossible situation requiring a big payout.

efunc

So, I went and spoke to the Apple Store manager, and he admitted that the technician I originally spoke to failed to adequately advise me regarding the cost of the repair and the fact that it was just provisional quote, not a final one, but he wouldn't budge on the fee nevertheless. No surprise then.

Meanwhile I'm just trying to decode the status of my Amex Chargeback. I opened the dispute on the 10th October, the payment has been reversed in my account and on the 15th the dispute status was set to 'closed'. That came as a surprise to say the least, since I know the reversal can be reversed again pending evidence from PayPal. I queried it with Amex who said it actually closes on the 5th of December, up until which they can deduct the payment from my account again. I now see the status is more accurately set to 'in progress'.

I'm triying to understand what might be happening behind the scenes though. If as has been mentioned above PayPal will simply say the payment conforms to their T&Cs and Amex agrees then I would have expected the dispute to be decided in their favour more or less within an hour or so of me opening it. It's now been 9 days.

On the 12th I received an email from PayPal saying:

We were recently notified that you disputed the below transaction with your bank or card provider:

Case ID                      Transaction amount £605.00 GBP Dispute amount £605.00 GBP Transaction ID *************** Transaction date 30 August 2024

We can't investigate or decide this case
You opened this dispute with your bank or card provider, and not with us. We can't provide additional details or updates on this claim because we don't have access to the investigation details.

The sooner the case is decided the better for me, even if I loose the claim, since I'll need to pay to get the MacBook repaired and then hopefully sell it within the remaining warranty period. Has anyone had any experience of these processes and know why it hasn't been decided in days rather than weeks? The eBay and PayPal cases were both decided within 10 minutes of me opening them! Secondly, what do PayPal mean by saying they can't 'investigate or decide the case'. Is that simply because they first need to receive the supporting documents I uploaded to Amex? According to Amex "If the merchant provides information supporting the transaction, we may rebill your account." If this hinges of whether or not I informed PayPal of a problem within 30 days of the transaction then that seems a relatively simple matter to substantiate. ***EDIT*** On reflection I guess the long drawn out process is owning to the fact that Amex probably collect all my documents together and then serve them to PayPal in a package with a paper form which they then need to fill in and return with their own supporting evidence? They would then send theses on to me with their decision. Hence probably weeks of paperwork.

born_again

Not sure on Amex. But Visa/Mastercard is all digital via internal systems & interbank. 

Seem to remember another Amex case which poster thought was closed & then redebited several months later.

From what has been said S75 is out, So looking at a chargeback.

efunc

Thanks for that. And yes, that's the concern. However I have to take Amex at their word that the end of the formal process is December 5th at which point I'll know either way. I just wonder what the actual process is that PayPal is following that makes this all so slow. Surely if it's so cut and dry they would just reject the claim and say it exceeded 30 days so there's nothing for them to bother investigating.