Winter fuel payment

kb56

surely this can be easily sorted via input from the tax office I’m guessing that if you’re still earning you can afford to pay for your energy. Also higher tax bracket pensioners wouldn’t qualify. I am also surprised that some residents in nursing homes qualify when they don’t even pay heating bills.

why do pensions fall short of minimum wage? The current pension rate per hour is around £6.30 based on a 35 hour week. Workers benefit from the constant reduction in national insurance this doesn’t benefit pensioners

eskbanker

kb56 said:

surely this can be easily sorted via input from the tax office

What do you believe needs to be 'sorted'?

Silvertabby

kb56 said:

surely this can be easily sorted via input from the tax office I’m guessing that if you’re still earning you can afford to pay for your energy. Also higher tax bracket pensioners wouldn’t qualify. I am also surprised that some residents in nursing homes qualify when they don’t even pay heating bills.

why do pensions fall short of minimum wage? The current pension rate per hour is around £6.30 based on a 35 hour week. Workers benefit from the constant reduction in national insurance this doesn’t benefit pensioners

WFA and the difference between the State pension and the minimum wage are two completely separate issues.

In the case of State pension/wages....

1.  Workers on the minimum wage have expenses that pensioners don't.  ie, child related expenses and work expenses including commuting costs, for a start.  Plus NI contributions.

2.  Pensioners (over SPA)  don't pay NI at all, so puzzled by your comment that only workers have benefitted from the recent NI reductions.  Plus pensioners are expected to have accrued other pension(s) income.

This only skims the surface.  

barnstar2077

kb56 said:

surely this can be easily sorted via input from the tax office I’m guessing that if you’re still earning you can afford to pay for your energy. Also higher tax bracket pensioners wouldn’t qualify. I am also surprised that some residents in nursing homes qualify when they don’t even pay heating bills.

why do pensions fall short of minimum wage? The current pension rate per hour is around £6.30 based on a 35 hour week. Workers benefit from the constant reduction in national insurance this doesn’t benefit pensioners

Maybe it's because they aren't working? :  )

Kim_13

Silvertabby said:

kb56 said:

surely this can be easily sorted via input from the tax office I’m guessing that if you’re still earning you can afford to pay for your energy. Also higher tax bracket pensioners wouldn’t qualify. I am also surprised that some residents in nursing homes qualify when they don’t even pay heating bills.

why do pensions fall short of minimum wage? The current pension rate per hour is around £6.30 based on a 35 hour week. Workers benefit from the constant reduction in national insurance this doesn’t benefit pensioners

WFA and the difference between the State pension and the minimum wage are two completely separate issues.

In the case of State pension/wages....

1.  Workers on the minimum wage have expenses that pensioners don't.  ie, child related expenses and work expenses including commuting costs, for a start.  Plus NI contributions.

2.  Pensioners (over SPA)  don't pay NI at all, so puzzled by your comment that only workers have benefitted from the recent NI reductions.  Plus pensioners and are expected to have accrued other pension(s) income.

This only skims the surface.  

It’s good point in that a pensioner who is still being paid by an employer would be better able to manage without the payment than someone just above the Pension Credit cut off, whether that be through a State Pension only or an older State Pension and a very small private pension. Having deferred the State Pension would also be an indicator that the money was not needed.

Had it been done such that only basic rate and non taxpayers would get it this year, pending development of a more suitable means test, then I think there’d be very little opposition to the move.

barnstar2077

kb56 said:

surely this can be easily sorted via input from the tax office I’m guessing that if you’re still earning you can afford to pay for your energy. Also higher tax bracket pensioners wouldn’t qualify. I am also surprised that some residents in nursing homes qualify when they don’t even pay heating bills.

why do pensions fall short of minimum wage? The current pension rate per hour is around £6.30 based on a 35 hour week. Workers benefit from the constant reduction in national insurance this doesn’t benefit pensioners

Too many people decided to retire early, after, or during the pandemic.  Recent efforts and changes have been in trying to entice those "economically inactive" people back to work.  Reducing NI and removing the LTA is all designed to keep people in the work place longer.  That was the carrot, the removal of the winter fuel payment for most is part of the stick! :  )

coyrls

barnstar2077 said:

kb56 said:

surely this can be easily sorted via input from the tax office I’m guessing that if you’re still earning you can afford to pay for your energy. Also higher tax bracket pensioners wouldn’t qualify. I am also surprised that some residents in nursing homes qualify when they don’t even pay heating bills.

why do pensions fall short of minimum wage? The current pension rate per hour is around £6.30 based on a 35 hour week. Workers benefit from the constant reduction in national insurance this doesn’t benefit pensioners

Too many people decided to retire early, after, or during the pandemic.  Recent efforts and changes have been in trying to entice those "economically inactive" people back to work.  Reducing NI and removing the LTA is all designed to keep people in the work place longer.  That was the carrot, the removal of the winter fuel payment for most is part of the stick! :  )

Although people retiring early would not have qualified for the WFP until SPA anyway.

barnstar2077

Talking of the pandemic, the amount of money that was spent on the NHS and on the furlough scheme must have been astronomical and completely unprecedented in history.  Yes, there have been plagues before, but for a government to pay 80% of peoples wages is remarkable.

I am surprised that we have recovered as well as we have economically.  It can't just be business as usual after such an event.  Without trying to move on to politics, I think there is going to have to be worse to come before things can start to improve again.  

barnstar2077

coyrls said:

barnstar2077 said:

kb56 said:

surely this can be easily sorted via input from the tax office I’m guessing that if you’re still earning you can afford to pay for your energy. Also higher tax bracket pensioners wouldn’t qualify. I am also surprised that some residents in nursing homes qualify when they don’t even pay heating bills.

why do pensions fall short of minimum wage? The current pension rate per hour is around £6.30 based on a 35 hour week. Workers benefit from the constant reduction in national insurance this doesn’t benefit pensioners

Too many people decided to retire early, after, or during the pandemic.  Recent efforts and changes have been in trying to entice those "economically inactive" people back to work.  Reducing NI and removing the LTA is all designed to keep people in the work place longer.  That was the carrot, the removal of the winter fuel payment for most is part of the stick! :  )

Although people retiring early would not have qualified for the WFP until SPA anyway.

True, but it is one more reason to stay in work, and it is money that needs to be saved.  I know plenty of people who will work till they can't work any more sadly.

Hoenir

No one wants to pay the bill for the party. Magic money trees are in short supply. 

hugheskevi

Kim_13 said:

Had it been done such that only basic rate and non taxpayers would get it this year, pending development of a more suitable means test, then I think there’d be very little opposition to the move.

As it will not be known who is a non-taxpayer, basic rate taxpayer or whatever rate until 6th April 2025 at the earliest, such an approach would need to be based off 2023/24 tax records.

But until Self-Assessment returns are made for 2023/24 by 31st January 2025, tax records will be incomplete. So it would probably need to be based on 2022/23 tax records.

Since 2022/23, many people will have reached State Pension age, and their incomes are likely to be materially different, so their 2022/23 tax status would be a poor indicator of their wealth (and even at the best of times, marginal tax rate is a poor indicator - many of the wealthiest individuals will have zero income, or at least, zero income subject to income tax).

Any attempt to try to base it on 2024/25 tax status could be undermined by behaviour to manipulate tax status, eg, making pension contributions to become a non-taxpayer. This would be possible even for some higher earners, eg, those earning £50,000+ so again it would not necessarily be a good indicator of need.

There would also be a need for large volumes of DWP benefit recipient data to be passed to HMRC to be merged with HMRC records to determine tax status, and then be returned to DWP. Whilst not a difficult process analytically, data transfer between different entities is a time-consuming process nowadays, ever since the 2007 child benefit data loss by HMRC. Risk assessments, business cases, security measures, etc, all need to be done, and there would only about a 3 month window to do all of that.