Communal drying green dog mess

sunshine17

Hello advice needed here. We have lived in our upper villa for 14 years and downstairs was empty abandoned for years. We have maintained the whole building prior to the sale of downstairs after it was finally repossessed 6 years ago. We erected new fence and cleared out back communal space . We have joint communal drying green both responsible for upkeep. Downstairs has never once used the drying green or cur the grass or weeded it although her old mother has been up weeding for her because she's not interested in it. We gave her space when she moved in and she has enjoyed sitting outside and socialising with friends.

We have never used it since she moved in to sit out as it's not a garden. We came home 6 weeks ago to a note to say she had bought a puppy and to reassure us it wouldn't be using the drying green or letting pup near washing. It's a large square of grass. 

Her pup is well over 12 weeks now and I've not seen her walk her dog once, but there is big patches of yellow dead grass all over drying green and dog mess. She has been out picking it up and with weather I haven't been able to get my washing out. 

I put my washing out yesterday and left it out and this morning there's dog meds on grass. She just came back from holiday yesterday and the last week she was away we had attempted to go out and mow the grass but her mother was sitting there drinking enjoying the space and it put us off doing the grass with her sitting there. She doesn't even live here. 


We feel like she's taking the !!!!!! and I'm not shy its on the tip of my tongue to pull her up. We paid a lot of money to buy this house and the money we put into the building and communal area for her to let her dog crap wherever it likes. She seems to think she also owns the patio built under her kitchen window we were the ones that laid it because it was a mess before she even lived here. 

It's clearly states we both own all communal areas and both responsible for upkeep. 


Any one else had this issue or is it ok to use the space as a toilet. 

Flugelhorn

ask her which days she would like to regularly put aside to help with tidying up outside 

tacpot12

Is there anything to say that the communal area can't be used for any purpose? Is the drying green described as a drying green in the lease/deeds?

Does the lease prevent the keeping of pets? 

If there are no restrictions in the lease, you can't really enforce anything, so it comes down to negotiation.

You are quite reasonable in not wanting to have to walk through/around dog mess or even have to mow a lawn that has dog mess on it. So just keep up that you are being reasonable in asking her to pick up the solid matter. If there are no restrictions, you might have to accept that the grass is going to be killed by the dog urinating, but if it's a shared space, then you can't expect it to be kept exactly how you would keep it. 

loubel

As above, you need to read your lease (I am assuming you are in England or Wales but some of your wordings suggest possibly this is not correct) to find out what the shared areas can and can't be used for. But it is completely reasonable for you not to want to have dog mess on these spaces so you are going to need to have a neighbourly chat with her to remind her that she needs to clean up after her dog immediately if it fouls the communal areas. Consider whether the drying area could be fenced off to prevent her dog from entering at all.

ThisIsWeird

sunshine17 said:

Hello advice needed here. We have lived in our upper villa for 14 years and downstairs was empty abandoned for years. We have maintained the whole building prior to the sale of downstairs after it was finally repossessed 6 years ago. We erected new fence and cleared out back communal space . We have joint communal drying green both responsible for upkeep. Downstairs has never once used the drying green or cur the grass or weeded it although her old mother has been up weeding for her because she's not interested in it. We gave her space when she moved in and she has enjoyed sitting outside and socialising with friends.
We have never used it since she moved in to sit out as it's not a garden. We came home 6 weeks ago to a note to say she had bought a puppy and to reassure us it wouldn't be using the drying green or letting pup near washing. It's a large square of grass.
Her pup is well over 12 weeks now and I've not seen her walk her dog once, but there is big patches of yellow dead grass all over drying green and dog mess. She has been out picking it up and with weather I haven't been able to get my washing out.
I put my washing out yesterday and left it out and this morning there's dog meds on grass. She just came back from holiday yesterday and the last week she was away we had attempted to go out and mow the grass but her mother was sitting there drinking enjoying the space and it put us off doing the grass with her sitting there. She doesn't even live here.
We feel like she's taking the !!!!!! and I'm not shy its on the tip of my tongue to pull her up. We paid a lot of money to buy this house and the money we put into the building and communal area for her to let her dog crap wherever it likes. She seems to think she also owns the patio built under her kitchen window we were the ones that laid it because it was a mess before she even lived here.
It's clearly states we both own all communal areas and both responsible for upkeep.
Any one else had this issue or is it ok to use the space as a toilet.

Three separate issues here, I think. The first is the 'rights' of the two parties (you and them) - and their guests - to use that area; is it 'recreational', purely a functional 'amenity', or undefined - so both? The second is the responsibility of each party to keep it maintained. And the third is the poo and wee (I'm guessing, from the yellow patches, that this is a female dawg?)

The first two should go hand-in-hand, but often - as in your case - they don't. Read your deeds for hopeful clarification. The third is completely actionable as a separate entity!

You can tackle all these issues, but some will be easier than others. Ie, you may struggle to make them contribute to its upkeep, tho' you could at least bill them for half of any costs accrued.

The dog-fouling issue should be straight forward to handle; afaIk, it is a potential offence in a number of ways, including 'environmental', and 'anti-social'. Since it is almost certainly (certainly) an 'offence', you can record it using a covert camera, and that's the first thing I'd do before tackling the person; gather unimpeachable evidence, because you know that, without this, the crone will simply deny it, claiming aliens or fence-jumping dawgs for the literal issue.

So, set that in progress. Hidden camera, with sound - you will want to capture the conversations you'll have with them over this. 

(Have a camera with a built-in SD card that overwrites every ~10 days or so - 64 or 128GB size. Any footage of significance to this issue, download it and store, carefully dated and labelled. Do not share it with anyone - it is purely evidence should this matter go - legally - further. All 'unused' footage will automatically be written over.)

Contact your LA and ask them for guidance on this pooing issue too - be informed, but don't ask them to act yet.

Check your deeds, and see what - exactly - it says about (a) the use of that ground, (b) the rights and responsibilities of each party, and (c) if it says anything about pets. 

What you may be able to do about her being out in that area will likely come down to what's written in the deeds, but I suspect there will be nothing there to prevent her from doing what she's doing; almost certainly you have the same rights too, as would your guests - but check your deeds. 

So, your task, until you have enough evidenced-info to tackle the issue, is to go about your life in as 'matter-of-fact' a manner as you can, as if this person was not a piece of dawgpoo; you want to mow that piece of grass? Then mow it. Do not be side-tracked or intimidated by the presence of this vile person. Just do it. If they have the nerve to say anything about you spoiling their enjoyment, be utterly calm and reasonable in countering it; big smile, "This is the only time I have at the mo' for this - soz!" You can push it a bit if you like, "Would you like to mow it instead?" 

Any poos you come across, make it very clear what you have found - and ask, "Any idea which dawg did this?!" Do a loud 'tsktsk', bag it, put it aside, and continue mowing. Evidence evidence evidence. (No, I don't mean you keep the poos as evidence...)

In addition to the covert CCTV camera overlooking the area, in such cases like this when you just know the other party will almost certainly be devious and dishonest, I would recommend a covert 'pocket' camera too, available from around a £enner on eBay. When you finally have the 'conversation' about the poos, have it running. Catch her lying.

When you have investigated your deeds, and gathered enough evidence of her dog's actions, then it's the 'approach'. You will need to know what ground you are on - can you insist that their dog does not go on this area at all, or can it perhaps be permitted if the dog is leashed and kept to within a few feet of their door? Then run through your head a quick reminder of the simple facts of what this person is doing, has done, and will continue to do if not tackled. Ie, these folk have zero consideration or empathy. You are not dealing with a 'normal' or nice human being, so do not worry about 'upsetting' them if they act that way (playing 'victim' is standard practice). Nice and calm, but assertive, and unapologetic. And, for gawd's sakes, have it recorded. "Hi. We need to have a chat about your dawg's fouling." Give her a few seconds to react or respond. "To allow a dog to foul on a communal or public area is both an environmental and anti-social offence, and needs to stop. Your dog needs to be kept completely away from any communal area from now on. It is not even enough for you to begin picking up your dog mess, because the dog wee is also killing the grass I am putting sole effort to keep looking good. You understand what it is I'm saying, don't you?" Don't say it with any tetchiness, but just delivered matter-of-fact. Don't give them 'cause' to become belligerent; they probably will be, but not from your tone. Deliver it 'cold'.

Don't be side-lined or reply to their almost certain deviousness; "My dawg is the only thing I have in my life...", or "I do pick up poos...", just stare at her/them until they stop talking, and repeat the mantra; "Your dog needs to be kept away from this communal utility area..."

Anything other than complete contrition and a promise to keep the dog away, and you get ready to contact your LA and your LegProt. Keep your CCTV going, and report them the instant they repeat the offence.

First, the deeds. And the CCTV purchase. And the pocket one :-)

Do you have Legal Protection in your house insurance? If so, call them up for guidance, too, especially on issues like the shared cost of upkeep.

Flugelhorn

Is this Scotland? is there a lease or equivalent?

user1977

loubel said:

(I am assuming you are in England or Wales but some of your wordings suggest possibly this is not correct) 

Sounds more like Scotland to me. So no lease, but there are (probably) some conditions in the deeds about use/maintenance etc. I doubt it will go into any detail about picking up after the dog or allowing visitors to sunbathe...

ThisIsWeird

sunshine17 said:

We have never used it since she moved in to sit out as it's not a garden. We came home 6 weeks ago to a note to say she had bought a puppy and to reassure us it wouldn't be using the drying green or letting pup near washing. It's a large square of grass.

Her pup is well over 12 weeks now and I've not seen her walk her dog once.

Do you both also have a 'garden' in addition to this drying area?

Do you still have that note?

Neither she nor her family take this dog out for walks? You could call the RSPCA for advice on this, but unlikely - sadly - it's actionable.

Photo/video every poo you come across.

Post on here what - exactly - it says in your deeds about this ground. And pets. What is this area referred to as?

Evidence evidence - fair warning - then act punitively. Everything at once.

sunshine17

tacpot12 said:

Is there anything to say that the communal area can't be used for any purpose? Is the drying green described as a drying green in the lease/deeds?

Does the lease prevent the keeping of pets? 

If there are no restrictions in the lease, you can't really enforce anything, so it comes down to negotiation.

You are quite reasonable in not wanting to have to walk through/around dog mess or even have to mow a lawn that has dog mess on it. So just keep up that you are being reasonable in asking her to pick up the solid matter. If there are no restrictions, you might have to accept that the grass is going to be killed by the dog urinating, but if it's a shared space, then you can't expect it to be kept exactly how you would keep it. 

No clearly states it is a communal drying green and all other areas. It clearly states in deeds drying green the fact is she's never used it in 6 years never stood on the grass never.cut the grass then all of a sudden she gets dog and they are trampling all over.grass and pee patches all over it now dog mess on the grass. Ive just been out and taken in my washing and put washing out and the grass is damp from the frost last night and stinks of musty pee. 

sunshine17

sunshine17 said:

tacpot12 said:

Is there anything to say that the communal area can't be used for any purpose? Is the drying green described as a drying green in the lease/deeds?

Does the lease prevent the keeping of pets? 

If there are no restrictions in the lease, you can't really enforce anything, so it comes down to negotiation.

You are quite reasonable in not wanting to have to walk through/around dog mess or even have to mow a lawn that has dog mess on it. So just keep up that you are being reasonable in asking her to pick up the solid matter. If there are no restrictions, you might have to accept that the grass is going to be killed by the dog urinating, but if it's a shared space, then you can't expect it to be kept exactly how you would keep it. 

No clearly states it is a communal drying green and all other areas. It clearly states in deeds drying green the fact is she's never used it in 6 years never stood on the grass never.cut the grass then all of a sudden she gets dog and they are trampling all over.grass and pee patches all over it now dog mess on the grass. Ive just been out and taken in my washing and put washing out and the grass is damp from the frost last night and stinks of musty pee. 

Also we own our property she has a.mortgage on property

sunshine17

Flugelhorn said:

Is this Scotland? is there a lease or equivalent?

No lease we own property she has mortgage it clearly states in deeds it's a drying green and site for old wash house. Which isn't there.