Retirement Planning Spreadsheet example

akm2018

SouthCoastBoy said:

the problem with annuities is i don't think they are value for money, so not particularly keen on that route.

Depends what you think you get for your money. If you think you just get an income stream, then sure, maybe you have a point. But consider that you also get (a measure of) peace of mind - what value do you put on that?

It's a bit like the decision to get (or not get) any insurance product that you don't have to (so, anything apart from car insurance for a driver, and house insurance for a mortgage owner). Some people say, for example, that travel insurance is a waste of money for those that can afford to self-insure. Personally I wouldn't leave the country without it...

SouthCoastBoy

OldScientist said:

SouthCoastBoy said:

NoMore said:

SouthCoastBoy said:

pterri said:

GenX0212 said:

Cobbler_tone said:

leosayer said:

Moonwolf said:

sgx2000 said:

Lol......
Perhaps we are all nerds......

Joking aside, it is staggering how many people go into retirement with no idea what they are doing......

I remember trying to have pension conversations with my ex-colleagues ....
I might as well have been talking to the wall......

2 months into retirement.....loving it....

I told a colleague the other day that I am probably retiring in 6 months, she is only a few years younger than me.  She said "I am green with envy." So I asked about her pensions and provision and said I'm happy to talk to her about how she might improve her pensions.  

The reply "I hate thinking about pensions, as soon as I start I lose the will to live."

My pensions are my biggest asset, worth more than my house, even if it is tedious it has to be worth the effort to understand them.

I used to work for an investment company and I found that as a rule that financial planning knowledge is concentrated only in those who are in that role eg. investment managers and advisors. 90% of all other employees eg. HR, IT, Operations, Finance etc are generally ignorant.

I tried to help address this by holdings sessions with my colleagues but despite there being 20-30 people on the call, only 2 or 3 would interact. A few people came to discuss stuff with me individually but my experience generally is that most people only start looking at pensions when they are forced to because of redundancy, ill health or some other reason that is outside of their control. By this time, it's too late to make the most of retirement planning opportunities such as investment growth, tax reliefs etc.

It doesn't bode well for the future when most pension provision in the private sector is DC only. 

Ditto. I get a couple of people a year come and see me regarding their pension and some help to understand them.
We have tons of people in their late 50's/early 60's who 'could' comfortably retire and been in the pension for 30+ years but don't even have their log on. They are programmed to retire at state pension age and I can remember some moaning when the state pension age was raised because it meant they had to work longer. Some will have DB pensions of £25k a year plus, a modest DC pot, along with a £100k company share holding and will have no idea. That said, I appreciate some people are not driven by earlier retirement, or retirement at all.
I don't go out of my way to force it upon people because it isn't my job and I'm not a financial advisor. You can imagine the come back if you ever said something that was misconstrued. The important thing is that I am on top of my own situation!

100% true. I only started considering thing properly a few years back and making adjustments to maximise pension savings when I decided I wanted an early retirement. As one example many years ago as a couple we lost out on the child benefit due to my higher earnings but at no point did I realise sacrificing some of my earnings would have topped up my pension and brought my take home pay down below the cutoff - would have been a double win. On the other hand at that stage of life we pretty much spent everything we earned.

I started chucking money into a SIPP and ISAs once I realised I could have a SIPP alongside my DB (yes I know) also payed of the mortgage early. I thought I may be able to leap at 60 but suddenly realised I could go earlier. I’m 57 and leaving at the end of may. The power of compound interest and tax relief really is a marvelous thing. Yep, a DB safety net really does take the pressure off having to build a massive pot to ride out unexpected market shifts. If I only had a DC I’d be constantly stressed, I wonder if that forces people to work far longer even when the conventional advice and modelling says they have plenty of headroom? 

Your point about only dc and working longer, I think it does, and it's where I am at the moment. Currently 60 not sure when I'm going to retire but imagine a couple of years yet.

Annuities are the solution to that, if you are worried about having to rely on a DC pot and having to deal with it then just buy an annuity and remove all the risk to somebody else.

the problem with annuities is i don't think they are value for money, so not particularly keen on that route.

Drawdown SWR for UK: Around 3.0% to 3.5% for a 30 year retirement (i.e., to 90yo assuming retirement at 60). Less for longer retirements (2.5% to 3.0% for 40 years). Nice very recent article at https://monevator.com/safe-withdrawal-rate-uk/

Joint RPI annuity (100% survivor benefits) taken at 60yo: 3.7%
Single life RPI annuity taken at 60yo : 4.4% 

Inflation linked gilt ladder (30 years): 4.1% (3.4% for 40 years)

Annuity Prices as of beginning of March 2025 (https://www.williamburrows.com/calculators/annuity-tables/ ) - they will have risen a bit since.

The actual SWR for a retirement starting now is unknown and unknowable (if could be higher or lower than the values given above).

Using an RPI annuity to help provide an income floor in addition to state pension, coupled with drawdown, will provide some certainty in income and possibly some confidence in actually pulling the trigger.

Interesting swr article, I didn't notice any mention of the state pension, as hopefully we will have two of these in retirement, I would imagine that would have quite an impact on the swr.

GenX0212

OldScientist said:

SouthCoastBoy said:

NoMore said:

SouthCoastBoy said:

pterri said:

GenX0212 said:

Cobbler_tone said:

leosayer said:

Moonwolf said:

sgx2000 said:

Lol......
Perhaps we are all nerds......

Joking aside, it is staggering how many people go into retirement with no idea what they are doing......

I remember trying to have pension conversations with my ex-colleagues ....
I might as well have been talking to the wall......

2 months into retirement.....loving it....

I told a colleague the other day that I am probably retiring in 6 months, she is only a few years younger than me.  She said "I am green with envy." So I asked about her pensions and provision and said I'm happy to talk to her about how she might improve her pensions.  

The reply "I hate thinking about pensions, as soon as I start I lose the will to live."

My pensions are my biggest asset, worth more than my house, even if it is tedious it has to be worth the effort to understand them.

I used to work for an investment company and I found that as a rule that financial planning knowledge is concentrated only in those who are in that role eg. investment managers and advisors. 90% of all other employees eg. HR, IT, Operations, Finance etc are generally ignorant.

I tried to help address this by holdings sessions with my colleagues but despite there being 20-30 people on the call, only 2 or 3 would interact. A few people came to discuss stuff with me individually but my experience generally is that most people only start looking at pensions when they are forced to because of redundancy, ill health or some other reason that is outside of their control. By this time, it's too late to make the most of retirement planning opportunities such as investment growth, tax reliefs etc.

It doesn't bode well for the future when most pension provision in the private sector is DC only. 

Ditto. I get a couple of people a year come and see me regarding their pension and some help to understand them.
We have tons of people in their late 50's/early 60's who 'could' comfortably retire and been in the pension for 30+ years but don't even have their log on. They are programmed to retire at state pension age and I can remember some moaning when the state pension age was raised because it meant they had to work longer. Some will have DB pensions of £25k a year plus, a modest DC pot, along with a £100k company share holding and will have no idea. That said, I appreciate some people are not driven by earlier retirement, or retirement at all.
I don't go out of my way to force it upon people because it isn't my job and I'm not a financial advisor. You can imagine the come back if you ever said something that was misconstrued. The important thing is that I am on top of my own situation!

100% true. I only started considering thing properly a few years back and making adjustments to maximise pension savings when I decided I wanted an early retirement. As one example many years ago as a couple we lost out on the child benefit due to my higher earnings but at no point did I realise sacrificing some of my earnings would have topped up my pension and brought my take home pay down below the cutoff - would have been a double win. On the other hand at that stage of life we pretty much spent everything we earned.

I started chucking money into a SIPP and ISAs once I realised I could have a SIPP alongside my DB (yes I know) also payed of the mortgage early. I thought I may be able to leap at 60 but suddenly realised I could go earlier. I’m 57 and leaving at the end of may. The power of compound interest and tax relief really is a marvelous thing. Yep, a DB safety net really does take the pressure off having to build a massive pot to ride out unexpected market shifts. If I only had a DC I’d be constantly stressed, I wonder if that forces people to work far longer even when the conventional advice and modelling says they have plenty of headroom? 

Your point about only dc and working longer, I think it does, and it's where I am at the moment. Currently 60 not sure when I'm going to retire but imagine a couple of years yet.

Annuities are the solution to that, if you are worried about having to rely on a DC pot and having to deal with it then just buy an annuity and remove all the risk to somebody else.

the problem with annuities is i don't think they are value for money, so not particularly keen on that route.

Drawdown SWR for UK: Around 3.0% to 3.5% for a 30 year retirement (i.e., to 90yo assuming retirement at 60). Less for longer retirements (2.5% to 3.0% for 40 years). Nice very recent article at https://monevator.com/safe-withdrawal-rate-uk/

Joint RPI annuity (100% survivor benefits) taken at 60yo: 3.7%
Single life RPI annuity taken at 60yo : 4.4% 

Inflation linked gilt ladder (30 years): 4.1% (3.4% for 40 years)

Annuity Prices as of beginning of March 2025 (https://www.williamburrows.com/calculators/annuity-tables/ ) - they will have risen a bit since.

The actual SWR for a retirement starting now is unknown and unknowable (if could be higher or lower than the values given above).

Using an RPI annuity to help provide an income floor in addition to state pension, coupled with drawdown, will provide some certainty in income and possibly some confidence in actually pulling the trigger.

That seems to be based mainly on the 2 'safemax' points of 1910 and 1937?  Not saying it's right or wrong but is drawing conclusions from datapoints 115 and 88 years ago really valid? The world was a very,very different place back then.

coyrls

GenX0212 said:

OldScientist said:

SouthCoastBoy said:

NoMore said:

SouthCoastBoy said:

pterri said:

GenX0212 said:

Cobbler_tone said:

leosayer said:

Moonwolf said:

sgx2000 said:

Lol......
Perhaps we are all nerds......

Joking aside, it is staggering how many people go into retirement with no idea what they are doing......

I remember trying to have pension conversations with my ex-colleagues ....
I might as well have been talking to the wall......

2 months into retirement.....loving it....

I told a colleague the other day that I am probably retiring in 6 months, she is only a few years younger than me.  She said "I am green with envy." So I asked about her pensions and provision and said I'm happy to talk to her about how she might improve her pensions.  

The reply "I hate thinking about pensions, as soon as I start I lose the will to live."

My pensions are my biggest asset, worth more than my house, even if it is tedious it has to be worth the effort to understand them.

I used to work for an investment company and I found that as a rule that financial planning knowledge is concentrated only in those who are in that role eg. investment managers and advisors. 90% of all other employees eg. HR, IT, Operations, Finance etc are generally ignorant.

I tried to help address this by holdings sessions with my colleagues but despite there being 20-30 people on the call, only 2 or 3 would interact. A few people came to discuss stuff with me individually but my experience generally is that most people only start looking at pensions when they are forced to because of redundancy, ill health or some other reason that is outside of their control. By this time, it's too late to make the most of retirement planning opportunities such as investment growth, tax reliefs etc.

It doesn't bode well for the future when most pension provision in the private sector is DC only. 

Ditto. I get a couple of people a year come and see me regarding their pension and some help to understand them.
We have tons of people in their late 50's/early 60's who 'could' comfortably retire and been in the pension for 30+ years but don't even have their log on. They are programmed to retire at state pension age and I can remember some moaning when the state pension age was raised because it meant they had to work longer. Some will have DB pensions of £25k a year plus, a modest DC pot, along with a £100k company share holding and will have no idea. That said, I appreciate some people are not driven by earlier retirement, or retirement at all.
I don't go out of my way to force it upon people because it isn't my job and I'm not a financial advisor. You can imagine the come back if you ever said something that was misconstrued. The important thing is that I am on top of my own situation!

100% true. I only started considering thing properly a few years back and making adjustments to maximise pension savings when I decided I wanted an early retirement. As one example many years ago as a couple we lost out on the child benefit due to my higher earnings but at no point did I realise sacrificing some of my earnings would have topped up my pension and brought my take home pay down below the cutoff - would have been a double win. On the other hand at that stage of life we pretty much spent everything we earned.

I started chucking money into a SIPP and ISAs once I realised I could have a SIPP alongside my DB (yes I know) also payed of the mortgage early. I thought I may be able to leap at 60 but suddenly realised I could go earlier. I’m 57 and leaving at the end of may. The power of compound interest and tax relief really is a marvelous thing. Yep, a DB safety net really does take the pressure off having to build a massive pot to ride out unexpected market shifts. If I only had a DC I’d be constantly stressed, I wonder if that forces people to work far longer even when the conventional advice and modelling says they have plenty of headroom? 

Your point about only dc and working longer, I think it does, and it's where I am at the moment. Currently 60 not sure when I'm going to retire but imagine a couple of years yet.

Annuities are the solution to that, if you are worried about having to rely on a DC pot and having to deal with it then just buy an annuity and remove all the risk to somebody else.

the problem with annuities is i don't think they are value for money, so not particularly keen on that route.

Drawdown SWR for UK: Around 3.0% to 3.5% for a 30 year retirement (i.e., to 90yo assuming retirement at 60). Less for longer retirements (2.5% to 3.0% for 40 years). Nice very recent article at https://monevator.com/safe-withdrawal-rate-uk/

Joint RPI annuity (100% survivor benefits) taken at 60yo: 3.7%
Single life RPI annuity taken at 60yo : 4.4% 

Inflation linked gilt ladder (30 years): 4.1% (3.4% for 40 years)

Annuity Prices as of beginning of March 2025 (https://www.williamburrows.com/calculators/annuity-tables/ ) - they will have risen a bit since.

The actual SWR for a retirement starting now is unknown and unknowable (if could be higher or lower than the values given above).

Using an RPI annuity to help provide an income floor in addition to state pension, coupled with drawdown, will provide some certainty in income and possibly some confidence in actually pulling the trigger.

That seems to be based mainly on the 2 'safemax' points of 1910 and 1937?  Not saying it's right or wrong but is drawing conclusions from datapoints 115 and 88 years ago really valid? The world was a very,very different place back then.

SWR calculations have the questionable assumption that future return sequences will never be worse than return sequences in the past.  If you start discounting previous adverse return sequences, your assumption is going to be even more questionable.

cfw1994

SouthCoastBoy said:

QrizB said:

And the problem with that, of course, is that if you don't trust your drawdown strategy and simultaneously don't think annuities offer VFM, you never retire and end up the richest corpse in the graveyard.

Yes, but at least my children will benefit, and I would prefer to die with plenty of money rather than live my last years on the state pension alone.

Interesting point.
Someone on another forum pointed out that SP (esp for 2 people) could be viewed as paying all the household bills & essentials, leaving the DB + DC + Savings (ISA/PB, etc) paying for the luxuries - holidays, cars, etc.
Those last years where it is possible (though unlikely) you may breed expensive care are too hard to figure out.  If you work on worst case scenarios, you will never give up working 😱

Often means one can retire much earlier than you think: the latest James Shack video is worth a watch to give you some encouragement, SCB!
(& I like that he aims for 80-90% success scenarios when modelling things - once can always tighten the belt if things get tough!)


We are actively working on spreading our wealth downwards now, rather than waiting until we die.  

Our goal is to see how ours use the money now, whilst we are alive & encouraging them through their journeys 👍

Currently enjoying a month in the Alps, with our offspring (now late 20s) joining us for a week each (with partners).  It’s a fabulous ⛷️ holiday (one heads back today, the other comes out tomorrow) & a nice thing to do as a family: a chance for us to help build great memories with them whilst we are healthy and active.  You wouldn’t believe the number of group photos & selfies I take - with the future in mind 😉

Getting money passed down once you’re in your 50s or later is, I would suggest, rather less useful 🤷‍♂️

When we had a recent inheritance (last of our parents to pass away), we wrote a Deed of Variation to pass some more “downstream” than had been written in the will: all siblings agreed, & it gave the grandchildren a very helpful boost at a time when they could usefully use it 💪  You don’t need a solicitor to do this - see government words here - although if you are nervous you can spend a few hundred or more to do so.


Apologies to the thread - this has veered away from spreadsheets.
On that topic: our personal sheet is now at monthly granularity, but leading up to retirement was yearly: at a high level:

  A row per year (now per month 😉).
  Columns for income streams - State Pension, DB pensions, any passive income (ours is solar FIT for the next ~12 years).  
  When working, you could have one for Salary.
Those kick in (or disappear - solar!) over the years ahead, so pop the numbers in.
  Next column is PASSIVE INCOME - adds up those numbers, which will obviously increase as you get to SP age.
  Next, put a sum you want for TOTAL INCOME.  

  Now subtract the passive from total, leaving what you need.

The next few columns will be where you add in DC pots, ISAs, PBs & other savings…..& where you figure out where to draw from.

Clearly things can get complex, if you add in estimated growths, inflation, etc….but make a start, it might embolden you all to leap sooner and make the most of however many summers you have left!

OldScientist

SouthCoastBoy said:

OldScientist said:

SouthCoastBoy said:

NoMore said:

SouthCoastBoy said:

pterri said:

GenX0212 said:

Cobbler_tone said:

leosayer said:

Moonwolf said:

sgx2000 said:

Lol......
Perhaps we are all nerds......

Joking aside, it is staggering how many people go into retirement with no idea what they are doing......

I remember trying to have pension conversations with my ex-colleagues ....
I might as well have been talking to the wall......

2 months into retirement.....loving it....

I told a colleague the other day that I am probably retiring in 6 months, she is only a few years younger than me.  She said "I am green with envy." So I asked about her pensions and provision and said I'm happy to talk to her about how she might improve her pensions.  

The reply "I hate thinking about pensions, as soon as I start I lose the will to live."

My pensions are my biggest asset, worth more than my house, even if it is tedious it has to be worth the effort to understand them.

I used to work for an investment company and I found that as a rule that financial planning knowledge is concentrated only in those who are in that role eg. investment managers and advisors. 90% of all other employees eg. HR, IT, Operations, Finance etc are generally ignorant.

I tried to help address this by holdings sessions with my colleagues but despite there being 20-30 people on the call, only 2 or 3 would interact. A few people came to discuss stuff with me individually but my experience generally is that most people only start looking at pensions when they are forced to because of redundancy, ill health or some other reason that is outside of their control. By this time, it's too late to make the most of retirement planning opportunities such as investment growth, tax reliefs etc.

It doesn't bode well for the future when most pension provision in the private sector is DC only. 

Ditto. I get a couple of people a year come and see me regarding their pension and some help to understand them.
We have tons of people in their late 50's/early 60's who 'could' comfortably retire and been in the pension for 30+ years but don't even have their log on. They are programmed to retire at state pension age and I can remember some moaning when the state pension age was raised because it meant they had to work longer. Some will have DB pensions of £25k a year plus, a modest DC pot, along with a £100k company share holding and will have no idea. That said, I appreciate some people are not driven by earlier retirement, or retirement at all.
I don't go out of my way to force it upon people because it isn't my job and I'm not a financial advisor. You can imagine the come back if you ever said something that was misconstrued. The important thing is that I am on top of my own situation!

100% true. I only started considering thing properly a few years back and making adjustments to maximise pension savings when I decided I wanted an early retirement. As one example many years ago as a couple we lost out on the child benefit due to my higher earnings but at no point did I realise sacrificing some of my earnings would have topped up my pension and brought my take home pay down below the cutoff - would have been a double win. On the other hand at that stage of life we pretty much spent everything we earned.

I started chucking money into a SIPP and ISAs once I realised I could have a SIPP alongside my DB (yes I know) also payed of the mortgage early. I thought I may be able to leap at 60 but suddenly realised I could go earlier. I’m 57 and leaving at the end of may. The power of compound interest and tax relief really is a marvelous thing. Yep, a DB safety net really does take the pressure off having to build a massive pot to ride out unexpected market shifts. If I only had a DC I’d be constantly stressed, I wonder if that forces people to work far longer even when the conventional advice and modelling says they have plenty of headroom? 

Your point about only dc and working longer, I think it does, and it's where I am at the moment. Currently 60 not sure when I'm going to retire but imagine a couple of years yet.

Annuities are the solution to that, if you are worried about having to rely on a DC pot and having to deal with it then just buy an annuity and remove all the risk to somebody else.

the problem with annuities is i don't think they are value for money, so not particularly keen on that route.

Drawdown SWR for UK: Around 3.0% to 3.5% for a 30 year retirement (i.e., to 90yo assuming retirement at 60). Less for longer retirements (2.5% to 3.0% for 40 years). Nice very recent article at https://monevator.com/safe-withdrawal-rate-uk/

Joint RPI annuity (100% survivor benefits) taken at 60yo: 3.7%
Single life RPI annuity taken at 60yo : 4.4% 

Inflation linked gilt ladder (30 years): 4.1% (3.4% for 40 years)

Annuity Prices as of beginning of March 2025 (https://www.williamburrows.com/calculators/annuity-tables/ ) - they will have risen a bit since.

The actual SWR for a retirement starting now is unknown and unknowable (if could be higher or lower than the values given above).

Using an RPI annuity to help provide an income floor in addition to state pension, coupled with drawdown, will provide some certainty in income and possibly some confidence in actually pulling the trigger.

Interesting swr article, I didn't notice any mention of the state pension, as hopefully we will have two of these in retirement, I would imagine that would have quite an impact on the swr.

While the withdrawals from the portfolio are independent of the existence of the state pension, the overall income is not (I'm being picky, but including the SP in the SWR can be misleading terminology).

For example, assuming a portfolio of £500k, and a 3.5% inflation adjusted withdrawal rate, then portfolio withdrawals would be £17.5k per year.

For a single retiree with a full SP of £12k (for 2025/26), then the overall income would be £29.5k.

For a couple, in this example the overall income would be £41.5k.

OldScientist

GenX0212 said:

OldScientist said:

SouthCoastBoy said:

NoMore said:

SouthCoastBoy said:

pterri said:

GenX0212 said:

Cobbler_tone said:

leosayer said:

Moonwolf said:

sgx2000 said:

Lol......
Perhaps we are all nerds......

Joking aside, it is staggering how many people go into retirement with no idea what they are doing......

I remember trying to have pension conversations with my ex-colleagues ....
I might as well have been talking to the wall......

2 months into retirement.....loving it....

I told a colleague the other day that I am probably retiring in 6 months, she is only a few years younger than me.  She said "I am green with envy." So I asked about her pensions and provision and said I'm happy to talk to her about how she might improve her pensions.  

The reply "I hate thinking about pensions, as soon as I start I lose the will to live."

My pensions are my biggest asset, worth more than my house, even if it is tedious it has to be worth the effort to understand them.

I used to work for an investment company and I found that as a rule that financial planning knowledge is concentrated only in those who are in that role eg. investment managers and advisors. 90% of all other employees eg. HR, IT, Operations, Finance etc are generally ignorant.

I tried to help address this by holdings sessions with my colleagues but despite there being 20-30 people on the call, only 2 or 3 would interact. A few people came to discuss stuff with me individually but my experience generally is that most people only start looking at pensions when they are forced to because of redundancy, ill health or some other reason that is outside of their control. By this time, it's too late to make the most of retirement planning opportunities such as investment growth, tax reliefs etc.

It doesn't bode well for the future when most pension provision in the private sector is DC only. 

Ditto. I get a couple of people a year come and see me regarding their pension and some help to understand them.
We have tons of people in their late 50's/early 60's who 'could' comfortably retire and been in the pension for 30+ years but don't even have their log on. They are programmed to retire at state pension age and I can remember some moaning when the state pension age was raised because it meant they had to work longer. Some will have DB pensions of £25k a year plus, a modest DC pot, along with a £100k company share holding and will have no idea. That said, I appreciate some people are not driven by earlier retirement, or retirement at all.
I don't go out of my way to force it upon people because it isn't my job and I'm not a financial advisor. You can imagine the come back if you ever said something that was misconstrued. The important thing is that I am on top of my own situation!

100% true. I only started considering thing properly a few years back and making adjustments to maximise pension savings when I decided I wanted an early retirement. As one example many years ago as a couple we lost out on the child benefit due to my higher earnings but at no point did I realise sacrificing some of my earnings would have topped up my pension and brought my take home pay down below the cutoff - would have been a double win. On the other hand at that stage of life we pretty much spent everything we earned.

I started chucking money into a SIPP and ISAs once I realised I could have a SIPP alongside my DB (yes I know) also payed of the mortgage early. I thought I may be able to leap at 60 but suddenly realised I could go earlier. I’m 57 and leaving at the end of may. The power of compound interest and tax relief really is a marvelous thing. Yep, a DB safety net really does take the pressure off having to build a massive pot to ride out unexpected market shifts. If I only had a DC I’d be constantly stressed, I wonder if that forces people to work far longer even when the conventional advice and modelling says they have plenty of headroom? 

Your point about only dc and working longer, I think it does, and it's where I am at the moment. Currently 60 not sure when I'm going to retire but imagine a couple of years yet.

Annuities are the solution to that, if you are worried about having to rely on a DC pot and having to deal with it then just buy an annuity and remove all the risk to somebody else.

the problem with annuities is i don't think they are value for money, so not particularly keen on that route.

Drawdown SWR for UK: Around 3.0% to 3.5% for a 30 year retirement (i.e., to 90yo assuming retirement at 60). Less for longer retirements (2.5% to 3.0% for 40 years). Nice very recent article at https://monevator.com/safe-withdrawal-rate-uk/

Joint RPI annuity (100% survivor benefits) taken at 60yo: 3.7%
Single life RPI annuity taken at 60yo : 4.4% 

Inflation linked gilt ladder (30 years): 4.1% (3.4% for 40 years)

Annuity Prices as of beginning of March 2025 (https://www.williamburrows.com/calculators/annuity-tables/ ) - they will have risen a bit since.

The actual SWR for a retirement starting now is unknown and unknowable (if could be higher or lower than the values given above).

Using an RPI annuity to help provide an income floor in addition to state pension, coupled with drawdown, will provide some certainty in income and possibly some confidence in actually pulling the trigger.

That seems to be based mainly on the 2 'safemax' points of 1910 and 1937?  Not saying it's right or wrong but is drawing conclusions from datapoints 115 and 88 years ago really valid? The world was a very,very different place back then.

Yes it is as valid as it goes since regardless of the world it is, as @coyrls says, entirely possible that future real returns could be similar to, or worse than, those found in UK history.

Given that the MSWR is by definition the worst case SWR, all other historical retirements had a better SWR. The point being that one cannot know in advance what the SWR is going to be at the start of retirement (one of the reasons why inflation adjusted withdrawals are a poor approach is that it is not a robust solution if conditions turns out to be worse than expected).

While we are getting a bit away from spreadsheets, these considerations can important in determining the range of future returns modelled.

DT2001

cfw1994 said:

SouthCoastBoy said:

QrizB said:

And the problem with that, of course, is that if you don't trust your drawdown strategy and simultaneously don't think annuities offer VFM, you never retire and end up the richest corpse in the graveyard.

Yes, but at least my children will benefit, and I would prefer to die with plenty of money rather than live my last years on the state pension alone.

Interesting point.
Someone on another forum pointed out that SP (esp for 2 people) could be viewed as paying all the household bills & essentials, leaving the DB + DC + Savings (ISA/PB, etc) paying for the luxuries - holidays, cars, etc.
Those last years where it is possible (though unlikely) you may breed expensive care are too hard to figure out.  If you work on worst case scenarios, you will never give up working 😱

Often means one can retire much earlier than you think: the latest James Shack video is worth a watch to give you some encouragement, SCB!
(& I like that he aims for 80-90% success scenarios when modelling things - once can always tighten the belt if things get tough!)


We are actively working on spreading our wealth downwards now, rather than waiting until we die.  

Our goal is to see how ours use the money now, whilst we are alive & encouraging them through their journeys 👍

Currently enjoying a month in the Alps, with our offspring (now late 20s) joining us for a week each (with partners).  It’s a fabulous ⛷️ holiday (one heads back today, the other comes out tomorrow) & a nice thing to do as a family: a chance for us to help build great memories with them whilst we are healthy and active.  You wouldn’t believe the number of group photos & selfies I take - with the future in mind 😉

Getting money passed down once you’re in your 50s or later is, I would suggest, rather less useful 🤷‍♂️

When we had a recent inheritance (last of our parents to pass away), we wrote a Deed of Variation to pass some more “downstream” than had been written in the will: all siblings agreed, & it gave the grandchildren a very helpful boost at a time when they could usefully use it 💪  You don’t need a solicitor to do this - see government words here - although if you are nervous you can spend a few hundred or more to do so.


Apologies to the thread - this has veered away from spreadsheets.
On that topic: our personal sheet is now at monthly granularity, but leading up to retirement was yearly: at a high level:

  A row per year (now per month 😉).
  Columns for income streams - State Pension, DB pensions, any passive income (ours is solar FIT for the next ~12 years).  
  When working, you could have one for Salary.
Those kick in (or disappear - solar!) over the years ahead, so pop the numbers in.
  Next column is PASSIVE INCOME - adds up those numbers, which will obviously increase as you get to SP age.
  Next, put a sum you want for TOTAL INCOME.  

  Now subtract the passive from total, leaving what you need.

The next few columns will be where you add in DC pots, ISAs, PBs & other savings…..& where you figure out where to draw from.

Clearly things can get complex, if you add in estimated growths, inflation, etc….but make a start, it might embolden you all to leap sooner and make the most of however many summers you have left!

I agree with your comments whole heartedly about moving money, as you put it, downstream early. The key is some flexibility in your own spending to cope with whatever is thrown at us in retirement.

 I haven’t seen the latest James Shack video however I did come across the one headed “don’t retire yet” yesterday. As James said I try to encourage people to retire when they can however the difference one year can make is quite phenomenal. We all have to decide what are the important things we want to do in retirement and how far our budget will stretch. We love to travel and if we had to cut back we would look closer to home. So getting back to the spreadsheet we all have to remember which items are fixed (both income and expenditure) and which will vary. It is almost a case that as soon as it is completed it is out of date especially if relying on a DC pension. I have used a couple of pre made ones in the past but then adjusted/adopted other bits to suit my circumstances.