Planning to take Amazon to small claims court.

maxxpayne · 11 September 2024 at 8:25PM

Hi,

A couple of days ago we noted the very stylish LED bathroom mirror that we bought from Amazon in 2020 (56 months ago) has developed a fault. Likely due to failure of one or more LEDs or the power unit, the illumination strength iris dramatically reduced, rendering the illumination feature (reason why we bought it) basically useless. See example unit below.

I reached out to Amazon support earlier today and wrangled a bit with first line customer support (pretty much prepared to be disappointed) who refused to do anything about it when I cited the 2015 consumer protection legislation and was told to get it touch with their resolution centre. This is what I wrote to them (in summary):

Given that the average LED lifespan is around 14 years or 100,000 hours, a fault developing within 4 years definitely points to use of poor manufacturing/quality control. And even if it's not the LEDs but some other issue manifesting in the LEDs not working, from a consumer perspective, I expect a bathroom mirror to operate well for at least 6-10 years and not 4 years as seen here.

I also pointed to the helpful Which! article about the consume mr rights act:

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act-aKJYx8n5KiSl).

I received a prompt reply later today.

As you've had satisfactory use of this product for a period of time exceeding both the manufacturer's warranty period and the typical average life of this product, and since you purchased your product approximately 56 months ago and have used it successfully, please understand that we're unable to offer you a replacement or refund of the replacement value.

For more information on your statutory rights, please contact your local Trading Standards Office.

I wonder how does Amazon know what the typical life of the product is? If they do (they don’t and they are BSing) they should surely advertise this on their product page so consumers can buy products that last longer, right?

I think I have a strong case for taking them to small claims court.

What do you guys think?

RefluentBeans · 11 September 2024 at 9:12PM

Who supplied the product? Check the invoice. Amazon can either be the seller (in which case they have responsibility under the CRA as the retailer) or they could just be the marketplace (in which case Amazon acts as a digital storefront for third parties who sell, and Amazon mediate the sale - but aren’t the retailer and have no responsibility under the CRA).

If Amazon is the seller - sure take them to court, and do the whole shebang of complaining to the highest authority, writing a LBA, and then filing. If Amazon isn’t the seller - then find out who is. If it’s a weird string of letters that doesn’t sound like an actual brand, you may well be dealing with a drop shipping like company, and good luck chasing them down. Hopefully they are in the UK if they’re a third party and you can complain to them.

Two points: they may offer to repair or replace the product - that’s the retailers choice. Or (as will likely be the case here) it may be more economical to offer you a partial refund for the amount of time you have used the product against the expected lifetime of the product (normally capped at 6 years as this is when the statute of limitations kicks in). Secondly, worth considering you have no right to have an Amazon account. They could easily refuse to do future business with you (just as you could easily refuse to do future business with them). Just worth considering how much you legitimately could get back from a partial refund and if it’s worth getting black listed by Amazon - it’s been reported on these forums before. I don’t like the fact Amazon has that power, but it’s worth considering the future impact.

maxxpayne · 11 September 2024 at 9:50PM

Vitor said:

Contact Amazon: Even though the manufacturer’s warranty has expired, Amazon, as the retailer, still has responsibilities under the Consumer Rights Act 2015. You could argue that the product has not lasted a "reasonable" amount of time, given that LED lights typically have a much longer expected lifespan than 4.5 years. You can request a remedy, such as a repair, replacement, or partial refund.
Emphasize Reasonable Expectation of Durability: When you contact Amazon (preferably through email or their online support system so you have a record), make the case based on the reasonable expectation of durability. Explain that LEDs generally last much longer than traditional bulbs and that the product’s fault is due to premature failure. You can argue that this product should have lasted much longer than 56 months, making it unfit for purpose or of unsatisfactory quality.
Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR): If Amazon does not respond satisfactorily, you may have the option of using an ADR scheme (Amazon is a member of certain ADR bodies, such as the Retail Ombudsman). ADR is a less formal way of resolving disputes without going to court.
Small Claims Court: If your claim is rejected by Amazon and you still believe you have a case, you could take your case to the Small Claims Court in England and Wales. You would be arguing that the product did not last a reasonable time based on its nature and purpose (LED lighting should last 10-15 years in many cases). The court fee for claims under £300 is relatively low, and you could claim for a replacement or partial refund.
Try this -
Dear Amazon Customer Service,
I am writing to request assistance regarding a product I purchased from Amazon in [Month, Year]—an LED bathroom mirror (Order Number: [Insert Order Number]). While the mirror was supplied by a third-party seller, it was purchased directly through the Amazon platform.
Recently, the illumination feature of the mirror, which was the primary reason for my purchase, has significantly degraded. This appears to be due to a failure in either the LEDs or the power unit, as the brightness has been dramatically reduced and is now unusable. This issue has arisen after approximately 56 months of normal use.
I understand that both the Amazon and manufacturer warranties have expired. However, under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, I believe that the product has not lasted a reasonable amount of time. LED lighting products typically have an expected lifespan of 10-15 years, significantly longer than the 4.5 years that my mirror has lasted. Therefore, I believe the product was not of satisfactory quality or durable enough to meet reasonable expectations for its lifespan.
I would appreciate it if you could review this case, and I kindly request one of the following remedies:
A repair of the mirror, or
A replacement of the product, or
A partial refund reflecting the reduced lifespan of the product.
I look forward to your response and hope to resolve this matter amicably. Please let me know if you require any further information from me to assist with this claim.
Thank you for your time and assistance.
Sincerely,

I already wrote to Amazon and they refused on the grounds quoted in my original post. I could try again as you’ve worded the complaint in a much nicer way. Much appreciated.

maxxpayne · 11 September 2024 at 9:56PM

RefluentBeans said:

Who supplied the product? Check the invoice. Amazon can either be the seller (in which case they have responsibility under the CRA as the retailer) or they could just be the marketplace (in which case Amazon acts as a digital storefront for third parties who sell, and Amazon mediate the sale - but aren’t the retailer and have no responsibility under the CRA).

If Amazon is the seller - sure take them to court, and do the whole shebang of complaining to the highest authority, writing a LBA, and then filing. If Amazon isn’t the seller - then find out who is. If it’s a weird string of letters that doesn’t sound like an actual brand, you may well be dealing with a drop shipping like company, and good luck chasing them down. Hopefully they are in the UK if they’re a third party and you can complain to them.

Two points: they may offer to repair or replace the product - that’s the retailers choice. Or (as will likely be the case here) it may be more economical to offer you a partial refund for the amount of time you have used the product against the expected lifetime of the product (normally capped at 6 years as this is when the statute of limitations kicks in). Secondly, worth considering you have no right to have an Amazon account. They could easily refuse to do future business with you (just as you could easily refuse to do future business with them). Just worth considering how much you legitimately could get back from a partial refund and if it’s worth getting black listed by Amazon - it’s been reported on these forums before. I don’t like the fact Amazon has that power, but it’s worth considering the future impact.

Having dug out the invoice, it does look like a 3rd party seller. Sounds like I’m looking at laws of diminishing returns?

PHK · 11 September 2024 at 10:26PM

Assuming you can prove this is an inherent defect with or insufficient quality of the cabinet (and not something you’ve done unintentionally) then you’re likely only to get a partial refund, taking into account the use you’ve had of it. Which giving the age of the item is likely to be about £30.

Personally, I would move on and not buy that make again.

ElefantEd · 11 September 2024 at 10:50PM

Looks like a genuine VAT number, registered to the person named above, though the address is now
CYGG
111 PICCADILLY
MANCHESTER

M1 2HY

For the relatively small amount of money you are likely to get, even if you are successful, I wouldn't bother personally; just buy another, preferably a more reputable brand.

noitsnotme · 11 September 2024 at 11:46PM

ElefantEd said:

Looks like a genuine VAT number, registered to the person named above, though the address is now
CYGG
111 PICCADILLY
MANCHESTER
M1 2HY

For the relatively small amount of money you are likely to get, even if you are successful, I wouldn't bother personally; just buy another, preferably a more reputable brand.

Overseas sellers are required to have a UK VAT number to sell on Amazon UK. That Manchester address probably has hundreds of overseas businesses using it. The Chinese seller won’t have a physical presence there. There is virtually no chance of successfully suing this seller.

Arunmor · 12 September 2024 at 7:33AM

Just a quick note on LED lights, they need to have adequate cooling and I suspect that is not the case with things like LED mirrors.

RefluentBeans · 12 September 2024 at 7:37AM

maxxpayne said:

RefluentBeans said:

Who supplied the product? Check the invoice. Amazon can either be the seller (in which case they have responsibility under the CRA as the retailer) or they could just be the marketplace (in which case Amazon acts as a digital storefront for third parties who sell, and Amazon mediate the sale - but aren’t the retailer and have no responsibility under the CRA).

If Amazon is the seller - sure take them to court, and do the whole shebang of complaining to the highest authority, writing a LBA, and then filing. If Amazon isn’t the seller - then find out who is. If it’s a weird string of letters that doesn’t sound like an actual brand, you may well be dealing with a drop shipping like company, and good luck chasing them down. Hopefully they are in the UK if they’re a third party and you can complain to them.

Two points: they may offer to repair or replace the product - that’s the retailers choice. Or (as will likely be the case here) it may be more economical to offer you a partial refund for the amount of time you have used the product against the expected lifetime of the product (normally capped at 6 years as this is when the statute of limitations kicks in). Secondly, worth considering you have no right to have an Amazon account. They could easily refuse to do future business with you (just as you could easily refuse to do future business with them). Just worth considering how much you legitimately could get back from a partial refund and if it’s worth getting black listed by Amazon - it’s been reported on these forums before. I don’t like the fact Amazon has that power, but it’s worth considering the future impact.

Having dug out the invoice, it does look like a 3rd party seller. Sounds like I’m looking at laws of diminishing returns?

Unfortunately, I’d agree. You potentially could see if you can find some contact information for them, but in reality I’d imagine they import to the UK, and warehouse with Amazon, and likely have got little infrastructure or assets in the UK. On the plus side, you’d likely win a small claims court as I’d doubt they’d respond. But winning and claiming the money are two separate issues.

In any case - Amazon is not the person you should be looking at. The case would likely be unsuccessful if you did bring it.