Retailer responsible for refitting costs?

SJW1510

Hi,

We had a new shower fitted in November 2023 - the shower tray was bought online and fitted independently. The shower tray (stone resin) has now cracked. It was fitted as per manufacturer instructions - after a month of questions, photos, and input from the fitter, the retailer has confirmed that the manufacturer has now accepted liability and agreed to replace the tray. 

That's great, except to rip out the old tray and get the new one fitted is still going to cost a lot of money. Our plumber reckons 1-2 days labour - plus obviously we'll have to get new wall boarding as I assume it won't come out/go back in without damaging the bottom row at least. 

My question is whether the retailer is now liable for the fitting costs as well? I found Section 23 of the Consumer Rights Act (section 19(3) and (4)). This says:

"This section applies if the consumer has the right to repair or replacement 

If the consumer requires the trader to repair or replace the goods, the trader must:

1) do so within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience to the consumer and
2) bear any necessary costs incurred in doing so (including in particular the cost of any labour, materials, or postage)."

I believe this means that the retailer should be paying for the costs of the tray being refitted, and the cost of any replacement tiles/boards needed?

Does anyone know if this is the case and whether you know of any successful claims of this nature?

Thanks

Aylesbury_Duck

You say that the manufacturer has accepted liability.  The problem you might face is if the tray has been replaced under the manufacturer warranty and the terms of that warranty don't provide for fitting costs.

In future, get someone to supply and fit.  It makes it much easier to assign liability and get a solution.

TELLIT01

All you can do is ask the supplier of the shower tray to pay for all remedial work, including removal and replacement of the tray and all ancilliary work.  See how they react.

SJW1510

Aylesbury_Duck said:

You say that the manufacturer has accepted liability.  The problem you might face is if the tray has been replaced under the manufacturer warranty and the terms of that warranty don't provide for fitting costs.

In future, get someone to supply and fit.  It makes it much easier to assign liability and get a solution.

It was actually part of a huge renovation (which is still ongoing - but that's another story.....!) It was a new bathroom that was being created and had to co-ordinate with the rest of the building work going on around. Plumbers were on site for various other big jobs and had rerouted house piping, done a new boiler etc, so it seemed logical to get them to fit the bathroom around the build schedule. 

Mind you. having had some terrible experiences with trades over the last couple of years, I know the value in having someone I can trust to do a thorough job. I've got a fantastic electrician and a plumber, and fingers crossed, now a great carpenter too. I've heard such mixed things about fitters attached to retailers - I'd much rather get my own trades in because I know I can trust them.

Also though, surely a manufacturer can't simply opt out of the consumer rights act? Regardless of what their warranty says, if they've accepted liability for a faulty tray - which they have - if the consumer rights act says they have to pay for it to be re-fitted, surely they can't just decide they're not going to??

SJW1510

TELLIT01 said:

All you can do is ask the supplier of the shower tray to pay for all remedial work, including removal and replacement of the tray and all ancilliary work.  See how they react.

Thank you, yes, that's my plan. I did some research and it seemed to be covered under the consumer rights act, and it doesn't seem unreasonable. I just wasn't sure if I was missing something, or if there was some technicality that I was unaware of...

Aylesbury_Duck

SJW1510 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

You say that the manufacturer has accepted liability.  The problem you might face is if the tray has been replaced under the manufacturer warranty and the terms of that warranty don't provide for fitting costs.

In future, get someone to supply and fit.  It makes it much easier to assign liability and get a solution.

It was actually part of a huge renovation (which is still ongoing - but that's another story.....!) It was a new bathroom that was being created and had to co-ordinate with the rest of the building work going on around. Plumbers were on site for various other big jobs and had rerouted house piping, done a new boiler etc, so it seemed logical to get them to fit the bathroom around the build schedule. 

Mind you. having had some terrible experiences with trades over the last couple of years, I know the value in having someone I can trust to do a thorough job. I've got a fantastic electrician and a plumber, and fingers crossed, now a great carpenter too. I've heard such mixed things about fitters attached to retailers - I'd much rather get my own trades in because I know I can trust them.

Also though, surely a manufacturer can't simply opt out of the consumer rights act? Regardless of what their warranty says, if they've accepted liability for a faulty tray - which they have - if the consumer rights act says they have to pay for it to be re-fitted, surely they can't just decide they're not going to??

They can, if they didn't sell it to you.  The CRA applies to the contract between the retailer and the consumer.  Sometimes the retailer and manufacturer are the same entity (e.g. buying directly from the Samsung store) but this doesn't sound like that's the case.  That's why I mentioned the warranty, because that's usually something offered by a manufacturer and sits alongside (but cannot detract from) your consumer rights.

You can exercise your consumer rights, against the retailer.

SJW1510

Aylesbury_Duck said:

SJW1510 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

You say that the manufacturer has accepted liability.  The problem you might face is if the tray has been replaced under the manufacturer warranty and the terms of that warranty don't provide for fitting costs.

In future, get someone to supply and fit.  It makes it much easier to assign liability and get a solution.

It was actually part of a huge renovation (which is still ongoing - but that's another story.....!) It was a new bathroom that was being created and had to co-ordinate with the rest of the building work going on around. Plumbers were on site for various other big jobs and had rerouted house piping, done a new boiler etc, so it seemed logical to get them to fit the bathroom around the build schedule. 

Mind you. having had some terrible experiences with trades over the last couple of years, I know the value in having someone I can trust to do a thorough job. I've got a fantastic electrician and a plumber, and fingers crossed, now a great carpenter too. I've heard such mixed things about fitters attached to retailers - I'd much rather get my own trades in because I know I can trust them.

Also though, surely a manufacturer can't simply opt out of the consumer rights act? Regardless of what their warranty says, if they've accepted liability for a faulty tray - which they have - if the consumer rights act says they have to pay for it to be re-fitted, surely they can't just decide they're not going to??

They can, if they didn't sell it to you.  The CRA applies to the contract between the retailer and the consumer.  Sometimes the retailer and manufacturer are the same entity (e.g. buying directly from the Samsung store) but this doesn't sound like that's the case.  That's why I mentioned the warranty, because that's usually something offered by a manufacturer and sits alongside (but cannot detract from) your consumer rights.

You can exercise your consumer rights, against the retailer.

Aah right yes, thank you, I see the distinction now. I think in my head I've been sort of thinking of the retailer and manufacturer as a single entity. I actually sent a frustrated email at one point saying that I wasn't interested in what the manufacturer had to say - I said the retailer sold me the shower tray and it's cracked, so they need to replace it, regardless of any internal conversations with their manufacturer. All of my conversations have been with the retailer only. 

So, if the manufacturer has admitted liability for the faulty tray, and this was conveyed via the retailer, it sounds as if when I message them back I need to make it clear that I'm making a claim against them as the retailer under the consumer rights act, as opposed to trying to get my costs paid under the terms of the warranty. 

Does the fact that the manufacturer replaced the tray under the terms of a warranty alter how a claim under the consumer rights act might be viewed? Presumably there's no way for the retailer to say the consumer rights act doesn't apply because the tray was supplied by a manufacturer who's agreed to replace due to a warranty?

Aylesbury_Duck

SJW1510 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

SJW1510 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

You say that the manufacturer has accepted liability.  The problem you might face is if the tray has been replaced under the manufacturer warranty and the terms of that warranty don't provide for fitting costs.

In future, get someone to supply and fit.  It makes it much easier to assign liability and get a solution.

It was actually part of a huge renovation (which is still ongoing - but that's another story.....!) It was a new bathroom that was being created and had to co-ordinate with the rest of the building work going on around. Plumbers were on site for various other big jobs and had rerouted house piping, done a new boiler etc, so it seemed logical to get them to fit the bathroom around the build schedule. 

Mind you. having had some terrible experiences with trades over the last couple of years, I know the value in having someone I can trust to do a thorough job. I've got a fantastic electrician and a plumber, and fingers crossed, now a great carpenter too. I've heard such mixed things about fitters attached to retailers - I'd much rather get my own trades in because I know I can trust them.

Also though, surely a manufacturer can't simply opt out of the consumer rights act? Regardless of what their warranty says, if they've accepted liability for a faulty tray - which they have - if the consumer rights act says they have to pay for it to be re-fitted, surely they can't just decide they're not going to??

They can, if they didn't sell it to you.  The CRA applies to the contract between the retailer and the consumer.  Sometimes the retailer and manufacturer are the same entity (e.g. buying directly from the Samsung store) but this doesn't sound like that's the case.  That's why I mentioned the warranty, because that's usually something offered by a manufacturer and sits alongside (but cannot detract from) your consumer rights.

You can exercise your consumer rights, against the retailer.

Aah right yes, thank you, I see the distinction now. I think in my head I've been sort of thinking of the retailer and manufacturer as a single entity. I actually sent a frustrated email at one point saying that I wasn't interested in what the manufacturer had to say - I said the retailer sold me the shower tray and it's cracked, so they need to replace it, regardless of any internal conversations with their manufacturer. All of my conversations have been with the retailer only. 

So, if the manufacturer has admitted liability for the faulty tray, and this was conveyed via the retailer, it sounds as if when I message them back I need to make it clear that I'm making a claim against them as the retailer under the consumer rights act, as opposed to trying to get my costs paid under the terms of the warranty. 

Does the fact that the manufacturer replaced the tray under the terms of a warranty alter how a claim under the consumer rights act might be viewed? Presumably there's no way for the retailer to say the consumer rights act doesn't apply because the tray was supplied by a manufacturer who's agreed to replace due to a warranty?

Yes, I think it worth making that point.  The good news is that ordinarily after six months, a retailer will ask the customer to have the item inspected to confirm it was always faulty or likely to fail prematurely.  You have that evidence already, directly from the manufacturer.  On that basis, I think you should set out your expectations of labour costs for the retailer to bear under your consumer rights.

As to the last sentence of yours, that was what I was thinking might be the stance they take.  You'll only know once you get a response to your consumer claim.  Let us know what they come back with.

SJW1510

Aylesbury_Duck said:

SJW1510 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

SJW1510 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

You say that the manufacturer has accepted liability.  The problem you might face is if the tray has been replaced under the manufacturer warranty and the terms of that warranty don't provide for fitting costs.

In future, get someone to supply and fit.  It makes it much easier to assign liability and get a solution.

It was actually part of a huge renovation (which is still ongoing - but that's another story.....!) It was a new bathroom that was being created and had to co-ordinate with the rest of the building work going on around. Plumbers were on site for various other big jobs and had rerouted house piping, done a new boiler etc, so it seemed logical to get them to fit the bathroom around the build schedule. 

Mind you. having had some terrible experiences with trades over the last couple of years, I know the value in having someone I can trust to do a thorough job. I've got a fantastic electrician and a plumber, and fingers crossed, now a great carpenter too. I've heard such mixed things about fitters attached to retailers - I'd much rather get my own trades in because I know I can trust them.

Also though, surely a manufacturer can't simply opt out of the consumer rights act? Regardless of what their warranty says, if they've accepted liability for a faulty tray - which they have - if the consumer rights act says they have to pay for it to be re-fitted, surely they can't just decide they're not going to??

They can, if they didn't sell it to you.  The CRA applies to the contract between the retailer and the consumer.  Sometimes the retailer and manufacturer are the same entity (e.g. buying directly from the Samsung store) but this doesn't sound like that's the case.  That's why I mentioned the warranty, because that's usually something offered by a manufacturer and sits alongside (but cannot detract from) your consumer rights.

You can exercise your consumer rights, against the retailer.

Aah right yes, thank you, I see the distinction now. I think in my head I've been sort of thinking of the retailer and manufacturer as a single entity. I actually sent a frustrated email at one point saying that I wasn't interested in what the manufacturer had to say - I said the retailer sold me the shower tray and it's cracked, so they need to replace it, regardless of any internal conversations with their manufacturer. All of my conversations have been with the retailer only. 

So, if the manufacturer has admitted liability for the faulty tray, and this was conveyed via the retailer, it sounds as if when I message them back I need to make it clear that I'm making a claim against them as the retailer under the consumer rights act, as opposed to trying to get my costs paid under the terms of the warranty. 

Does the fact that the manufacturer replaced the tray under the terms of a warranty alter how a claim under the consumer rights act might be viewed? Presumably there's no way for the retailer to say the consumer rights act doesn't apply because the tray was supplied by a manufacturer who's agreed to replace due to a warranty?

Yes, I think it worth making that point.  The good news is that ordinarily after six months, a retailer will ask the customer to have the item inspected to confirm it was always faulty or likely to fail prematurely.  You have that evidence already, directly from the manufacturer.  On that basis, I think you should set out your expectations of labour costs for the retailer to bear under your consumer rights.

As to the last sentence of yours, that was what I was thinking might be the stance they take.  You'll only know once you get a response to your consumer claim.  Let us know what they come back with.

Thanks, that's been really helpful to get my mind straight. I'll approach them on that basis and see what they say. It seems grossly unfair that the consumer should have to pay installation costs if the item has been accepted as faulty, but I'll see what they have to say. I will come back and update - thanks again for your time tonight. 

SJW1510

So, an update of sorts. 

The matter was referred upwards at the retailer and I've now had a response from management. They have now said that the tray was only replaced as a goodwill gesture. This was never mentioned previously. In fact, I thanked them for accepting liability and was never corrected. They responded at the time with "you're welcome, tray is on its way" type of message - thereby implying that I was correct in stating they had accepted liability. 

I have replied pointing out all of this and the fact they requested technical information from my bathroom fitter, all of which complied with industry best practice and on the basis of this, they agreed to replace the tray. 

They've also said that it would be "unlikely" for a manufacturer flaw to last for nine months of continued use. 

I've emailed them back but my question is, can they suddenly just insist that it was only a goodwill gesture with no admission of liability if that wasn't specified previously? Especially given the fact I thanked them for accepting liability, and this was not corrected?

Aylesbury_Duck

It's all a bit messy, but rather than getting into a protracted he-said-she-said situation, a simple way forward is to get two quotes for the costs of replacing the tray, write to the retailer with those quotes and asking them to fund the cheaper of the two.  Assuming they still refuse, send them a letter giving them 14 days to resolve the problem or you'll pursue small claims action.