Turned down for PIP - mixing with other people.

Kris35

Muttleythefrog said:

Might be helpful to keep the same matters in additions to the same thread... we've got several now regarding your PIP claim focusing on this issue and we need context particularly in advising someone on their PIP claim and its entirety. 

Sorry to hear of the outcome.... without reading back but relying on memory there is risk always and realised in this case that you interactions with others will be viewed as selective evasion... a choice... rather than caused by illness/disablement... and finding the side of the line if even such a line really exists is always going to be problematic. It's always liable to be difficult to evidence because you might have to meaningfully engage with someone else to convince them you cannot... including medical professionals who may provide a diagnosed condition where the criteria involves having difficult social interaction and risks associated. 

Often with PIP it will be a fight through reconsideration and more likely successful at appeal to get decisions appropriate. PIP obviously involves more activities and it appears from above we are right to assume you got zero across the board and pinned hopes on scoring 8 points in this activity raised while feel activities other than this one are not relevant. If you are getting no level of awarded PIP then challenging decision obviously is with nothing to lose other than time, frustrations and effort etc... I'd be inclined to pursue to appeal if necessary if I felt that I should get 8 points for this activity... do as advised look at other activities... the link from Poppy is particularly useful.. as in my mind it would be a little bit of an outlier to have someone severely disabled in one activity of daily living yet satisfactorily functional in all others... possible but rare I imagine particularly if mental health is an issue.

Yeah I did actually try to post on my previous thread last time but was told it's better to start a new thread. Yep I thought a person could get awarded points on one thing but seems this isn't the case. I'll take it further and see what happens.

Thanks for all your help.

Muttleythefrog

Kris35 said:

poppy12345 said:

I'd advise you to have a read of this. To expect 8 points from 1 descriptor and not expect any points from any of the other descriptors to me seems odd. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria#daily-living-activities

But what's odd about being able to do activities on my own such as bathing, eating etc but not being able to socialize and living as a hermit due to my severe anxiety at letting anyone get to know me? I thought those 8 points could be awarded on their own merit but you seem to be saying I need to be unable to bathe and dress myself? Sorry, I don't get it. 

No two claimants are the same... we're all unique... there will be odd cases that don't fit with norms or trends of claim. But the answer to your question from my POV is because generally I think someone so severely disabled by mental illness that they suffer high levels of psychological distress or risk (to them/others) engaging with others is liable to have the same mental health problems or related health problems also interfering in many other aspects of day to day life and function at least at some basic level. There are quite a few members likely cases in point including myself... like many MI sufferers including with anxiety disorders we can face significant problem engaging with others but also have lower level (at least in PIP point scoring terms) functional failure in many aspects of daily life including much not calibrated or considered in PIP. It may be that those who assess or judge your case have this also in mind which may take them to a conclusion you choose to live quite an isolated life but if needed can engage others just as you can cook and eat without risk, use toilet, wash yourself when you fancy it. That lack of described general dysfunction and evidence of it cannot be helpful to claim even if authentic and true alongside major disablement in DL activity 9.

It is possible that someone could be as you describe yourself against PIP criteria but it would seem an outlier case I imagine and how you document the assessment going itself suggests to me they absolutely tested the idea that you can engage if required to do so to a reasonable standard. I don't think a telephone assessment for PIP is a good or even valid way to do this by the way but that's what they used and it's why they asked about pets etc... they're not interested in your pets... they're interested in whether you can engage with them without having some meltdown or dysfunction or impropriety etc. 

Muttleythefrog

Kris35 said:

Muttleythefrog said:

Might be helpful to keep the same matters in additions to the same thread... we've got several now regarding your PIP claim focusing on this issue and we need context particularly in advising someone on their PIP claim and its entirety. 

Sorry to hear of the outcome.... without reading back but relying on memory there is risk always and realised in this case that you interactions with others will be viewed as selective evasion... a choice... rather than caused by illness/disablement... and finding the side of the line if even such a line really exists is always going to be problematic. It's always liable to be difficult to evidence because you might have to meaningfully engage with someone else to convince them you cannot... including medical professionals who may provide a diagnosed condition where the criteria involves having difficult social interaction and risks associated. 

Often with PIP it will be a fight through reconsideration and more likely successful at appeal to get decisions appropriate. PIP obviously involves more activities and it appears from above we are right to assume you got zero across the board and pinned hopes on scoring 8 points in this activity raised while feel activities other than this one are not relevant. If you are getting no level of awarded PIP then challenging decision obviously is with nothing to lose other than time, frustrations and effort etc... I'd be inclined to pursue to appeal if necessary if I felt that I should get 8 points for this activity... do as advised look at other activities... the link from Poppy is particularly useful.. as in my mind it would be a little bit of an outlier to have someone severely disabled in one activity of daily living yet satisfactorily functional in all others... possible but rare I imagine particularly if mental health is an issue.

Yeah I did actually try to post on my previous thread last time but was told it's better to start a new thread. Yep I thought a person could get awarded points on one thing but seems this isn't the case. I'll take it further and see what happens.

Thanks for all your help.

I would start new threads for different matters... but your queries have all gone down the path of a specific descriptor for a specific activity in a claim for PIP through various stages. 

You're welcome... and hopefully you get some joy... do take on board advice and regarding the scoring on one or more activities I've covered in post just made... like I say... possible but would likely by an outlier case... unusual... and you might find yourself up against that mind set at MR and even appeal. 

peteuk

Kris35 said:

poppy12345 said:

I'd advise you to have a read of this. To expect 8 points from 1 descriptor and not expect any points from any of the other descriptors to me seems odd. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria#daily-living-activities

But what's odd about being able to do activities on my own such as bathing, eating etc but not being able to socialize and living as a hermit due to my severe anxiety at letting anyone get to know me? I thought those 8 points could be awarded on their own merit but you seem to be saying I need to be unable to bathe and dress myself? Sorry, I don't get it. 

As frustrating as it is, the fact you cant sustain a relationship isn’t automatically covered by this activity.  But to get the 8 points according to the PIP document and explaination of the descriptor you need the following (as already pointed out). 

i. overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant; or 

ii. the claimant to exhibit behaviour which would result in a substantial risk of harm to the claimant or another person

If you get i, overwhelming psychological distress then I would suggest that you need to look at the other descriptors and activities as this is likely to effect other activities. 

If you fall into ii. Then this means you are either violent or aggressive to others or yourself on face to face contact with others.  But yourself have said that you can exchange pleasantry's, so there is an element of ability to communicate face to face.   Consider how you do your shopping, how you cope with public transport, how you interact with others at your doctors or dentist. Be honest and really to yourself, if you 100% feel its right then MR and tribuneral are the way forward, however there is a risk (quite high at MR level) that you’ll not get the outcome your require. 

Remember not being able to work is not a requirement for PIP.  People who work can also claim PIP. 

Spoonie_Turtle

The basis for being awarded LCWRA can be relevant though; it's not a direct correlation with PIP but there can be some overlap.  Do you know which descriptor you scored there?

I would think some copies of your diaries could be helpful as anecdotal evidence, if you decide to pursue an MR and potentially appeal.  If you didn't already put previous examples on your form, it would be good to give an overview of those (frequency, type of situations, the result) then select a few of those events as a representative sample, and make a copy of the relevant diary entries.

Kris35

I have no idea which descriptor I scored I'm afraid. But I've drafted a good letter to them (all day yesterday) by going over my threads here and I've quoted case law which might be applicable to me. I still think I might have to appeal but let's see.

Muttleythefrog

Kris35 said:

I have no idea which descriptor I scored I'm afraid. But I've drafted a good letter to them (all day yesterday) by going over my threads here and I've quoted case law which might be applicable to me. I still think I might have to appeal but let's see.

I would strongly recommend you find out and get any associated assessment reports (including paper based)... probably the latter will suffice as the DWP tend to rubber stamp in effect those reports. This is potential evidence for you... including for any further Work Capability Reassessments where you'll probably want to make a case you should remain with LCWRA and quite probably for the same reason. The fact you are considered severely disabled or at risk regarding at least one LCWRA descriptor could be invaluable alongside a report suggestive of severe difficulties when you're facing an albeit unrelated PIP claim and there will exist consideration you have no difficulties at all.

It would be a tragedy if you invested vast time doing research including on case law to the neglect of acquiring  evidence the DWP commissioned themselves that could be helpful to your case. As above there is some overlap.. but even as a general guide to your problems PIP and WCA reports can be mutually useful. There are probably 2 or 3 descriptors that could have been applied to you for the WCA that could be extremely relevant to what you're arguing. 

Refer 
13. Coping with social engagement, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder.

Engagement in social contact is always precluded due to difficulty relating to others or significant distress experienced by the claimant.

14. Appropriateness of behaviour with other people, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder.
Has, on a daily basis, uncontrollable episodes of aggressive or disinhibited behaviour that would be unreasonable in any workplace.

There's also the substantial risk descriptor regarding you/others if you're not found to have LCWRA.

All 3 imply problems and risks of social interaction.

(I have used WCA reports for my PIP claim and they HAVE been considered as evidence as they're even referred to in justifying some Healthcare Professional opinions... including regarding the very same PIP descriptor you want applied!)

peteuk

I looked over you last two threads, and to be frank you were warned this may happen.   

I personal do not see your behaviour as likely to lead to you exhibiting behaviour which would result in a substantial risk of harm to the claimant or another person.  As all you’ve mentioned is feeling panicked and flush. Which doesn’t scream OPD.  So 8 pts, for me is off the table.

Get your PIP assessment, look at what you may need to show and go from there.  You’ll need to understand the activity and the descriptors (thankfully the are very similar eg unaided, aided, prompted…). If you’ve scored 0pts then look at your migraines?  Is there a trigger?  Do you have the evidence to support these conditions?

Did you include the letter from your psychiatry assessment, as evidence?  If not why not? Sending this may have saved you from what you’re going through now.

Muttleythefrog

peteuk said:

I looked over you last two threads, and to be frank you were warned this may happen.   

I personal do not see your behaviour as likely to lead to you exhibiting behaviour which would result in a substantial risk of harm to the claimant or another person.  As all you’ve mentioned is feeling panicked and flush. Which doesn’t scream OPD.  So 8 pts, for me is off the table.

Get your PIP assessment, look at what you may need to show and go from there.  You’ll need to understand the activity and the descriptors (thankfully the are very similar eg unaided, aided, prompted…). If you’ve scored 0pts then look at your migraines?  Is there a trigger?  Do you have the evidence to support these conditions?

Did you include the letter from your psychiatry assessment, as evidence?  If not why not? Sending this may have saved you from what you’re going through now.

I would be cautious in concluding the same..... as aside from being badly placed here.. they seem to be awarded LCWRA and claim they have no problems other than in relation to dealing with others. If indeed they do have LCWRA then there must be a decent chance one of the 3 descriptors I've raised has been applied in their case which if so would be significant. If they get LCWRA for some other reason then it raises again the point that their disablements may be more widespread than perhaps they themselves are considering. People with Mental Illness can often be very poor at understanding their capacities or communicating difficulties... exaggerating and underplaying can be common as can be failure to recognise.

Agree obviously on other evidence provided it is helpful to argument.

Kris35

Hang on a moment. Of course I get LCWRA?

Look thanks for all your advice but I just don't want to continue here. Yes I was warned this might happen. Because my anxiety is weird and I can open the door to a delivery person, but I don't have anyone around me and can't have relationships because of certain stuff that makes me do certain things. I personally feel that I AM eligible. It's only because I don't fall into the standards of anxiety that I am battling this but who's to say a person's anxiety where they can't talk to strangers but has full support of family and friends is more debilitating than someone who can exchange a sentence to a stranger but can't have anyone in their lives. 

So if ok, can we leave it here. Thanks.