Turned down for PIP - mixing with other people.

Kris35

On my rejection letter PIP say: Mixing with other people (scored out of 8):

You can engage with other people unaided.

But here's the thing; I can only exchange pleasantries a couple of times really and can't build a relationship with anyone. No one whatsoever. No NoK, no neighbour, nothing.

The CAB thought I'd be awarded 8 points. Is this even worth asking them to reconsider?

Thanks.

Rubyroobs

What evidence did you send to show how you struggle with interactions with others? Did you have an assessment and interact with the assessor or was it a paper based assessment?

Kris35

I had an hour on the phone. I told him that I can talk to people a few times exchanging pleasantries but that I live totally alone and don't mix at all. There is no evidence really apart from not staying at group therapy sessions. I leave after the first time. So, yeah I can engage with others unaided but only a couple of times really. ANd I can't have anyone helping me because that would mean me meeting them regularly. What I have isn't recognised I don't think so I'm giving up.

peteuk

The Gov.uk site shows that activity 9 is 

This activity considers a claimant’s ability to engage with other people, which means to interact face-to-face in a contextually and socially appropriate manner, understand body language and establish relationships. The different aspects of the ability to engage with other people needs to be considered in the round.

This activity encompasses all forms of social engagement, whether the ‘relationship’ established lasts 10 minutes, 10 days or 10 years. It should be considered in the context of everyday activities in which social and verbal interaction is required.

When considering whether claimants can engage with others, consideration should be given to whether they can engage with people generally, not just those people they know well.

The descriptors are as follows: I have simplified these)

A) Unaided - 0 pts

b) Needs prompting - 2 pts

C) Needs social support - 4 pts

D) triggers an effect of below -  8 pts - 

i. overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant; or 

ii. the claimant to exhibit behaviour which would result in a substantial risk of harm to the claimant or another person.

I would try and full understand the activity and chose real life examples - is this backed up with medical evidence (thats is a rhetorical question) 

peteuk

I would also add you need to look at the assessment as a whole if your pinning your hopes on 8 pts from one single activity then it would suggest the rest of the assessment was nil point -  let us know the overall score and areas in which you have scored and we might be able to advise further.

Ive based this on the title and the OPs suggestion that if she was found to be d as suggested by CAB she would score 8 pts, so therefore get PIP. 

To get an award of the daily living component, you need to score:

• 8 points for the standard rate
• 12 points for the enhanced rate

Yes I know you can get PIP with one scoring activity, although it’s unlikely as other parts of life and the activities would also be affected. 

Kris35

I'm not entitled to any points; I am mobile and able bodied. The only thing I did think I might qualify for was the interacting with other people. I think the below is a case study extract:

Ability to establish a relationship when engaging with others requires evidence of more than mere reciprocation of exchanges.

So I took that to mean if a person cannot maintain a relationship then they qualify for the 8 points. I can go through my diaries and even photograph them from back in the day where I used to try and meet people but would feel a panic coming and my face burning and I'd just go to the loo and disappear. I just can't talk to people unless it's pleasantries. I am in the can't work category (LCWRA?).

born_again

Kris35 said:

I had an hour on the phone. I told him that I can talk to people a few times exchanging pleasantries but that I live totally alone and don't mix at all. There is no evidence really apart from not staying at group therapy sessions. I leave after the first time. So, yeah I can engage with others unaided but only a couple of times really. ANd I can't have anyone helping me because that would mean me meeting them regularly. What I have isn't recognised I don't think so I'm giving up.

Given a hour on phone, unless you were just giving single word answers, then from their view. I can see the result you received.
As you did engage with the assessor. 

My wife got the same score, despite that she will ignore people asking questions at such as hospital appointments & just look at me to answer, But because she answered assessor & looked at her, that she could engage with others.

Kris35

born_again said:

Kris35 said:

I had an hour on the phone. I told him that I can talk to people a few times exchanging pleasantries but that I live totally alone and don't mix at all. There is no evidence really apart from not staying at group therapy sessions. I leave after the first time. So, yeah I can engage with others unaided but only a couple of times really. ANd I can't have anyone helping me because that would mean me meeting them regularly. What I have isn't recognised I don't think so I'm giving up.

Given a hour on phone, unless you were just giving single word answers, then from their view. I can see the result you received.
As you did engage with the assessor. 

My wife got the same score, despite that she will ignore people asking questions at such as hospital appointments & just look at me to answer, But because she answered assessor & looked at her, that she could engage with others.

Tribunals hearing PIP appeals must be cautious not to infer from a claimant’s ability to engage with others in a very specific context that they would be able to carry out that task in other contexts.

That's from a case law I think. 

I've not had a partner for years of course as cannot have anyone around me. I'm going to look into it a bit more but right now I need a bit of a break.

poppy12345

I'd advise you to have a read of this. To expect 8 points from 1 descriptor and not expect any points from any of the other descriptors to me seems odd. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria#daily-living-activities

Muttleythefrog

Might be helpful to keep the same matters in additions to the same thread... we've got several now regarding your PIP claim focusing on this issue and we need context particularly in advising someone on their PIP claim and its entirety. 

Sorry to hear of the outcome.... without reading back but relying on memory there is risk always and realised in this case that you interactions with others will be viewed as selective evasion... a choice... rather than caused by illness/disablement... and finding the side of the line if even such a line really exists is always going to be problematic. It's always liable to be difficult to evidence because you might have to meaningfully engage with someone else to convince them you cannot... including medical professionals who may provide a diagnosed condition where the criteria involves having difficult social interaction and risks associated. 

Often with PIP it will be a fight through reconsideration and more likely successful at appeal to get decisions appropriate. PIP obviously involves more activities and it appears from above we are right to assume you got zero across the board and pinned hopes on scoring 8 points in this activity raised while feel activities other than this one are not relevant. If you are getting no level of awarded PIP then challenging decision obviously is with nothing to lose other than time, frustrations and effort etc... I'd be inclined to pursue to appeal if necessary if I felt that I should get 8 points for this activity... do as advised look at other activities... the link from Poppy is particularly useful.. as in my mind it would be a little bit of an outlier to have someone severely disabled in one activity of daily living yet satisfactorily functional in all others... possible but rare I imagine particularly if mental health is an issue... and I'm not surprised another member observes similar... you know... it's a bit like a top class sprinter... you would imagine they're probably pretty good in other sporting events than involve athletic speed like long jump even though they may not be world class at it. Any evidence you have to support.. use... and try to use examples.. real recent examples of how things go when you do interact with others.. mechanically explain and detail how things go wrong to highlight the difficulties and disability... I think your job substantially would be to convince that any avoiding of social engagement is because of what happens when you do socially engage... take them through the latter. 

Kris35

poppy12345 said:

I'd advise you to have a read of this. To expect 8 points from 1 descriptor and not expect any points from any of the other descriptors to me seems odd. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria#daily-living-activities

But what's odd about being able to do activities on my own such as bathing, eating etc but not being able to socialize and living as a hermit due to my severe anxiety at letting anyone get to know me? I thought those 8 points could be awarded on their own merit but you seem to be saying I need to be unable to bathe and dress myself? Sorry, I don't get it.