Water Meter system boiler vs combi

FreeBear

BarelySentientAI said:

Steveotwo said:

Mr.Generous said:

I estimate you'd be spending at least £5 more a year on water and only saving £100 on gas bills.

Really? So Im never going to see a payback spending around 2800 to upgrade to a combi

New boilers don't pay back with gas savings (usually) unless the one they replace is very old - think pilot light and non-condensing.

Better controls, or better use of controls, often does because the investment cost is much lower but the gas savings can still be decent.

Did the smarter control upgrade with my old Baxi back boiler - Made a significant difference to gas consumption. Along with thermal upgrades and draught proofing, I managed to get gas consumption down from 8000kWh to just 3000kWh (having a multifuel stove also helps).

Switched to a combi boiler last year (kept the same smart control), and gas consumption looks to be around 3500kWh. No change in water consumption though. If I had waited until this year, installing a heat pump would have been given serious consideration - The quote I had from Octopus was only £200 or so more than the combi boiler cost, and it included new, larger radiators - If I include what I spent on plumbing & radiators, the Octopus quote would actually be cheaper..

Steveotwo

ComicGeek said:

Steveotwo said:

Mr.Generous said:

I estimate you'd be spending at least £5 more a year on water and only saving £100 on gas bills.

Really? So Im never going to see a payback spending around 2800 to upgrade to a combi

You will never get a payback on it (just like window replacements and other 'energy saving' products with good marketing departments). Much better to spend £200 getting updated heating controls and save the rest of the cash. It's likely that any energy saving you would see is from better controls rather than the boiler itself.

A change from system boiler to combi is very much a downgrade. At least with a separate hot water cylinder you can use the immersion to get hot water if the boiler isn't working.

You will end up putting a hot water cylinder back in when you convert from gas combi to air source heat pump in the future.

Complete waste of time and money IMO.

Do you think heat pumps will eventually become cheaper to run than combi's then?

MattMattMattUK

Steveotwo said:

ComicGeek said:

Steveotwo said:

Mr.Generous said:

I estimate you'd be spending at least £5 more a year on water and only saving £100 on gas bills.

Really? So Im never going to see a payback spending around 2800 to upgrade to a combi

You will never get a payback on it (just like window replacements and other 'energy saving' products with good marketing departments). Much better to spend £200 getting updated heating controls and save the rest of the cash. It's likely that any energy saving you would see is from better controls rather than the boiler itself.

A change from system boiler to combi is very much a downgrade. At least with a separate hot water cylinder you can use the immersion to get hot water if the boiler isn't working.

You will end up putting a hot water cylinder back in when you convert from gas combi to air source heat pump in the future.

Complete waste of time and money IMO.

Do you think heat pumps will eventually become cheaper to run than combi's then?

They also can be in certain circumstances with the right tariffs, or if one has solar. They will become more so as gas starts to increase in cost vs electricity. 

vacheron

BarelySentientAI said:

Steveotwo said:

BarelySentientAI said:

Steveotwo said:

Mr.Generous said:

I estimate you'd be spending at least £5 more a year on water and only saving £100 on gas bills.

Really? So Im never going to see a payback spending around 2800 to upgrade to a combi

New boilers don't pay back with gas savings (usually) unless the one they replace is very old - think pilot light and non-condensing.

Better controls, or better use of controls, often does because the investment cost is much lower but the gas savings can still be decent.

Current boiler is a Baxi Solo system boiler from 2004 would you upgrade from that? 

I have just replaced a 1999 Potterton Supreme - but with another heat-only boiler and kept the water tank.

I don't expect a payback on it.

We have a Potterton Suprima 60 that we inherited with our house when we bought it in 2010, since then it has worked faultlessly. They apparently had a huge issue with dodgy control unit PCB's, but after a watchdog investigation they arranged for Siemens to design a replacement unit which was retrofitted for our previous owner by british gas, and which is very reliable and solved all the original problems. 

Apart from replacing the flue fan with a refurbed unit which I had to do last winter due to worn bushes at a cost of £50, it hasn't cost us a penny. We did upgrade it to a 2-zone system with Hive thermostats a few years ago, which saved us a bit of money due to the more flexible control on offer.

We've also never had it serviced in the last 14 years,  so that has saved us about £800 too!

..... cue panicked community responses.

Steveotwo

great work what a saving, do you think it runs quite inefficiently, id just love to know how much more a month it would cost, is it was like £10 I wouldn't be bothered.  

I installed a combi in my last place was there for 4 years ( didn't see pay back on it ) but it was super cheap to run and a weight of during the energy crisis. Having said that I had to call in warranty support twice in that time which seems excessive, don't build them like they used to. 

FreeBear

MattMattMattUK said:

Steveotwo said:

ComicGeek said:

Steveotwo said:

Mr.Generous said:

I estimate you'd be spending at least £5 more a year on water and only saving £100 on gas bills.

Really? So Im never going to see a payback spending around 2800 to upgrade to a combi

You will never get a payback on it (just like window replacements and other 'energy saving' products with good marketing departments). Much better to spend £200 getting updated heating controls and save the rest of the cash. It's likely that any energy saving you would see is from better controls rather than the boiler itself.

A change from system boiler to combi is very much a downgrade. At least with a separate hot water cylinder you can use the immersion to get hot water if the boiler isn't working.

You will end up putting a hot water cylinder back in when you convert from gas combi to air source heat pump in the future.

Complete waste of time and money IMO.

Do you think heat pumps will eventually become cheaper to run than combi's then?

They also can be in certain circumstances with the right tariffs, or if one has solar. They will become more so as gas starts to increase in cost vs electricity. 

Heat pump technology is advancing at quite a pace. In the past, a COP of 3 was considered good. If you take a look at Heatpumpmonitor, you'll see users getting scores quite a bit higher. Top of the leader board is getting 4.6 (winter) to 5.6 (summer). The numbers suggest he is saving ~£130 based on SVR rates. Actual saving would be much higher on an appropriate tariff (plus he has solar).

BarelySentientAI

Steveotwo said:

great work what a saving, do you think it runs quite inefficiently, id just love to know how much more a month it would cost, is it was like £10 I wouldn't be bothered.  

I installed a combi in my last place was there for 4 years ( didn't see pay back on it ) but it was super cheap to run and a weight of during the energy crisis. Having said that I had to call in warranty support twice in that time which seems excessive, don't build them like they used to. 

How much heat you use will be a far bigger impact that which boiler is supplying it.

If you really want to cut down on your heating bills, give HertsLad's thread a read (but you might need to take snacks).  https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6334019/how-to-live-without-heating-save-000s#latest

Eldi_Dos

MattMattMattUK said:

Steveotwo said:

ComicGeek said:

Steveotwo said:

Mr.Generous said:

I estimate you'd be spending at least £5 more a year on water and only saving £100 on gas bills.

Really? So Im never going to see a payback spending around 2800 to upgrade to a combi

You will never get a payback on it (just like window replacements and other 'energy saving' products with good marketing departments). Much better to spend £200 getting updated heating controls and save the rest of the cash. It's likely that any energy saving you would see is from better controls rather than the boiler itself.

A change from system boiler to combi is very much a downgrade. At least with a separate hot water cylinder you can use the immersion to get hot water if the boiler isn't working.

You will end up putting a hot water cylinder back in when you convert from gas combi to air source heat pump in the future.

Complete waste of time and money IMO.

Do you think heat pumps will eventually become cheaper to run than combi's then?

They also can be in certain circumstances with the right tariffs, or if one has solar. They will become more so as gas starts to increase in cost vs electricity. 

I have seen that assertion that gas prices will rise in relation to electric prices in the future made quite a few times and wonder about it.It would need to be done stealthily, we have seen the amount of discussion over the WHA and that only effects a small percentage of the population.The last figure I read there are 23 million gas boilers in the country and many will be unable to upgrade or absorb extra cost easily.
I will be a hard sell telling people that as demand goes down and supply is plentiful that prices have to go up.

BarelySentientAI

Eldi_Dos said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Steveotwo said:

ComicGeek said:

Steveotwo said:

Mr.Generous said:

I estimate you'd be spending at least £5 more a year on water and only saving £100 on gas bills.

Really? So Im never going to see a payback spending around 2800 to upgrade to a combi

You will never get a payback on it (just like window replacements and other 'energy saving' products with good marketing departments). Much better to spend £200 getting updated heating controls and save the rest of the cash. It's likely that any energy saving you would see is from better controls rather than the boiler itself.

A change from system boiler to combi is very much a downgrade. At least with a separate hot water cylinder you can use the immersion to get hot water if the boiler isn't working.

You will end up putting a hot water cylinder back in when you convert from gas combi to air source heat pump in the future.

Complete waste of time and money IMO.

Do you think heat pumps will eventually become cheaper to run than combi's then?

They also can be in certain circumstances with the right tariffs, or if one has solar. They will become more so as gas starts to increase in cost vs electricity. 

I have seen that assertion that gas prices will rise in relation to electric prices in the future made quite a few times and wonder about it.It would need to be done stealthily, we have seen the amount of discussion over the WHA and that only effects a small percentage of the population.The last figure I read there are 23 million gas boilers in the country and many will be unable to upgrade or absorb extra cost easily.
I will be a hard sell telling people that as demand goes down and supply is plentiful that prices have to go up.

I think you've misunderstood the assertion.

There will be no deliberate changes in price, stealthily or otherwise.  Electricity prices will be less and less linked to gas prices as gas generation ceases to be such a part of the generation system (and/or the structure of marginal pricing is addressed).  At the moment, there is effectively a hard link much of the time.

The delinking will likely make gas relatively more expensive than electricity compared to the relationship between the two fuels at the moment.

Look at what happens on wholesale tracking tariffs - electricity prices can happily go near to zero when the generation mix is right.  That's not someone making gas prices rise, that just means the link isn't there under those particular conditions.

Steveotwo

FreeBear said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Steveotwo said:

ComicGeek said:

Steveotwo said:

Mr.Generous said:

I estimate you'd be spending at least £5 more a year on water and only saving £100 on gas bills.

Really? So Im never going to see a payback spending around 2800 to upgrade to a combi

You will never get a payback on it (just like window replacements and other 'energy saving' products with good marketing departments). Much better to spend £200 getting updated heating controls and save the rest of the cash. It's likely that any energy saving you would see is from better controls rather than the boiler itself.

A change from system boiler to combi is very much a downgrade. At least with a separate hot water cylinder you can use the immersion to get hot water if the boiler isn't working.

You will end up putting a hot water cylinder back in when you convert from gas combi to air source heat pump in the future.

Complete waste of time and money IMO.

Do you think heat pumps will eventually become cheaper to run than combi's then?

They also can be in certain circumstances with the right tariffs, or if one has solar. They will become more so as gas starts to increase in cost vs electricity. 

Heat pump technology is advancing at quite a pace. In the past, a COP of 3 was considered good. If you take a look at Heatpumpmonitor, you'll see users getting scores quite a bit higher. Top of the leader board is getting 4.6 (winter) to 5.6 (summer). The numbers suggest he is saving ~£130 based on SVR rates. Actual saving would be much higher on an appropriate tariff (plus he has solar).

I cannot afford a heat pump and solar, maybe if prices dramatically decrease over the next few years, interesting though