Martin's suggestion for winter fuel allowance

MattMattMattUK

Brian3357 said:

The reality is that even the national minimum wage is far, far higher than the average state pension.

It is, but the NLW also takes account of different costs, such as housing, raising of children etc. Where as pensioners in receipt of only the state pension would also get additional housing benefit. 

Brian3357 said:

That is why the triple lock has been established as a safety net. 

The triple lock was created as an electoral bribe and as a political trap for any party proposing abolishing it. 

Brian3357 said:

The accumulated impact of  freezing the tax bands for years is huge. 

It could be over a decade or more, but it has not had any real impact yet, indeed the personal allowance rose at such a rate that even with current freezes it will take into 2044 to catch up with where the allowance was in real terms in 2000.

Brian3357 said:

Comparisons with other countries are not really relevant unless varables are carefully balanced rather than glibly stated as "fact" .

Facts are facts, however you seem to not like them. The variables are that everyone in the UK, but especially the lower and middle third of earners pays too little tax, which is why there is not enough money to fund nice things and we are burdening our children and grandchildren with huge debt.

Brian3357 said:

But I know what the French would do if their pension standards were undermined! But their workers are more supportive of the elderly and hope to retire themselves with a hard earned pension-a second phase of life not on the breadline

Amazing how you do not like international comparisons when they do not suit you, but then try and bring in an incorrect one when you think it might support your incorrect position.

The French pay considerably more tax, they pay considerably higher compulsory pension contributions, they are required to have compulsory health insurance. They do not like the idea of having to work longer for their state pension, but they also contribute vastly more in both taxes, compulsory insurance and compulsory pension contributions than people in the UK do. 

Brian3357 said:

This winter could see an increase in pensioners suffering from cold

This winter could see lots of things, but there is unlikely to be a rational financial reason for an increase in pensioners not adequately heating their homes. Indeed what we actually found last time was that more pensioners were keeping their heating off due to the fear of huge energy debts because people kept telling them that energy was unaffordable, when they could afford to heat their homes. Hyperbole is more damaging than reality when it comes to the vulnerable. 

Brian3357 said:

but some would just ask them to eat cake as a remedy. 

Would you like to build any other straw men?

Brian3357 said:

Shame on labour! 

Shame on those who continually demand "someone else" pays.

Scot_39

matt_drummer said:

I may have missed this and I am sure others know more than me.

You are entitled to pension credit if you are over pension age and your only source of income is a state pension that is not at (or close) to the current maximum new state pension?

If that is true, does that mean that somebody on pension credit receiving the WFA would actually receive more income annually than a pensioner whose sole source of income was the maximum new state pension?

See

https://www.gov.uk/pension-credit/eligibility


As usual its not that simple  - other sources - not all - of  income counts - as do savings above £10,000.

But for a single person the PC tops up to £218.15

The notional max new pension - £221.20


https://www.gov.uk/new-state-pension/what-youll-get


The Winter fuel payment - age dependent £200 sub c80, £300 over c80.  c£4 pw min 

https://www.gov.uk/winter-fuel-payment/how-much-youll-get


And so yes in some case £218.15 + £4 is greater than £221.20  (previous typo corrected)

The WFA ( winter fuel allowance) the same or different ? 

But millions of old pensioners - retired before new cut off date Apr 2016 ? - are on old state pension - £169.50 max- some though will get additional state pension.
And those not retired by cut off  have been transitioned to new. Many forecast to get less than nominal at nominal 35 yrs if contracted out for lots of working life.
Only those starting ni record in 2016 truly guaranteed the actual nominal fixed amount for nominal 35 years or more.

And as of 2019 dwp review found 44% on max new, compared to 65% on old.

Leaving those with no other income - below pension credit threshold.

That DWP estimate at 880,000 not claiming and those who already do benefit by an average of £75 per week uplift.

Spoonie_Turtle

matt_drummer said:

I may have missed this and I am sure others know more than me.

You are entitled to pension credit if you are over pension age and your only source of income is a state pension that is not at (or close) to the current maximum new state pension?

If that is true, does that mean that somebody on pension credit receiving the WFA would actually receive more income annually than a pensioner whose sole source of income was the maximum new state pension?

For a single person potentially yes, marginally, by £41.40 or £141.40 if over 80.  (Using the New State Pension amount of £221.20/week.)

[If a couple, no because the PC couple amount is nowhere near double the single amount, it's just slightly more than 1.5x the single amount.]

Brian3357

I think we also need to make a stand on WFA because the government could be proposing far worse measures in October and they need to know that targetting those without a loud political voice, will challenge their decisions and not buy the nonsense that it is all down to the outgoing government! It isn't.

I respect Martin, but his suggestion is no fairer and somewhat misses the point 

mmmmikey

Brian3357 said:

I think we also need to make a stand on WFA because the government could be proposing far worse measures in October and they need to know that targetting those without a loud political voice, will challenge their decisions and not buy the nonsense that it is all down to the outgoing government! It isn't.

I respect Martin, but his suggestion is no fairer and somewhat misses the point 

Is that how you think Government policy should be set? i.e. those that shout and scream and make the most fuss should get what they want, and stuff those that have to pay, that's their problem?

MattMattMattUK

Brian3357 said:

I think we also need to make a stand on WFA because the government could be proposing far worse measures in October  

You want to attack a sensible and rational measure now because at some point in the future something you do not like might happen. Seriously? 

Brian3357 said:

and they need to know that targetting those without a loud political voice, will challenge their decisions 

Pensioners have a substantial electoral and political voice, their interests are hugely over represented and they they are pandered to.

Brian3357 said:

and not buy the nonsense that it is all down to the outgoing government! It isn't.

You mean the outgoing government that spent the last 14 years messing things up, the last government that increased borrowing to the highest level since WWII, you mean the government that pushed the economically damaging Brexit, the government that gave us the catastrophic Truss? The previous government trashes the economy, ruined the tax base and loaded the country up with record debt. Anyone claiming that the current mess we are in is not the fault of the previous government lacks any credibility. 

Brian3357 said:

I respect Martin, but his suggestion is no fairer and somewhat misses the point 

All your suggestions boil down to "someone else should pay", that is not fair and totally misses the point.

BarelySentientAI

mmmmikey said:

Brian3357 said:

I think we also need to make a stand on WFA because the government could be proposing far worse measures in October and they need to know that targetting those without a loud political voice, will challenge their decisions and not buy the nonsense that it is all down to the outgoing government! It isn't.

I respect Martin, but his suggestion is no fairer and somewhat misses the point 

Is that how you think Government policy should be set? i.e. those that shout and scream and make the most fuss should get what they want, and stuff those that have to pay, that's their problem?

Only if it's a policy that Brian3357 agrees with - after all we've already discovered their opinion on the junior doctors and the train drivers.

Those groups are apparently undeserving regardless of how much fuss they make.

Brian3357

The political dogma that many are spouting is really the "shouting" in this discussion, which is drifting from the real issues at stake. Government policy shouldn't, I agree, be delivered by the loudest. It should be a consensus. I would doubt whether others are as supportive as some for huge settlements paid for by others, but not received by others. Just because groups cause havoc and make the public suffer, doesn't mean their demands should be met

t0rt0ise

Exodi said:

born_again said:

12 pages & not one person has mentioned about people that received the WFA, but did not want it & could not send it back..

You could send it back, but I understand it might have been difficult 10-15 years ago and this was brought to attention by Sir Alan Sugar - I mentioned it on page 10.

Gov.uk has detailed how to cancel it for many years (including now): https://www.gov.uk/winter-fuel-payment/report-change-circumstances

The reality is effectively no-one cancels it, including people that most would considered as well off.

Why do you think so many pensioners are screaming till they're blue in the face over this? It has very little to do with people on the breadline.

Exodi said:
In the past, the government encouraged well off pensioners who don't need the WFA to return the money and what do you think happened? Yeah of course, basically no-one did: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-31963099

It became a thing to give it to charity if you didn't need it. It would be interesting to know how much less the charities get this year, but of course we won't be able to know that.

Brian3357

It might be helpful for people with strong views to read what charities like Age concern think with their experience