Martin's suggestion for winter fuel allowance

Brian3357

I totally understand that moving forward, untargetted allowances like WFA should be subject to a more means tested approach.

 But at present the idea that only pensioners on tax credits qualify for WFA is inadequate as the energy crisis is still exerting pressure for hundreds of thousands of pensioners.

On reflection, the blanket help was also driven by cost effectiveness for the government. It is more expensive to administer a means tested approach. 

There has been some mention of the triple lock being overly generous. I disagree. It was devised to ensure the old do not fall into extreme poverty when inflation is relatively low but wages for instance surge, which is the case at present with the labour party's wage policy.

Worth mentioning that the continued freeze on tax bands supported by labour is effectively a huge tax increase for all, particularly damaging those on low income including pensioners. Makes one off allowances more essential 

This pulls again any claim that pensioners have experienced huge increases - just not true 

matt_drummer

I may have missed this and I am sure others know more than me.

You are entitled to pension credit if you are over pension age and your only source of income is a state pension that is not at (or close) to the current maximum new state pension?

If that is true, does that mean that somebody on pension credit receiving the WFA would actually receive more income annually than a pensioner whose sole source of income was the maximum new state pension?

BarelySentientAI

Brian3357 said:

This pulls again any claim that pensioners have experienced huge increases - just not true 

The triple lock has resulted in higher increases (over time and in real terms) than the recent wage settlements that you are arguing against 

Tax band freezes do not make blanket cash payments necessary or desirable.  They also do not particularly affect pensioners. 

Your continued insistence that pensioners are being specifically targeted for discrimination is clouding your perception of the issues.

Exodi

Brian3357 said:

I totally understand that moving forward, untargetted allowances like WFA should be subject to a more means tested approach.

 But at present the idea that only pensioners on tax credits qualify for WFA is inadequate as the energy crisis is still exerting pressure for hundreds of thousands of pensioners.

Energy crisis, so dramatic.

Just to point out, I know you guys probably don't give it any thought, but the "'energy crisis' is still exerting pressure for hundreds of thousands of pensioners everyone", including on the families you expect to subsidise the WFA for a weekend trip away energy bills.

born_again

12 pages & not one person has mentioned about people that received the WFA, but did not want it & could not send it back..

Exodi

born_again said:

12 pages & not one person has mentioned about people that received the WFA, but did not want it & could not send it back..

You could send it back, but I understand it might have been difficult 10-15 years ago and this was brought to attention by Sir Alan Sugar - I mentioned it on page 10.

Gov.uk has detailed how to cancel it for many years (including now): https://www.gov.uk/winter-fuel-payment/report-change-circumstances

The reality is effectively no-one cancels it, including people that most would considered as well off.

Why do you think so many pensioners are screaming till they're blue in the face over this? It has very little to do with people on the breadline.

Exodi said:
In the past, the government encouraged well off pensioners who don't need the WFA to return the money and what do you think happened? Yeah of course, basically no-one did: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-31963099

MattMattMattUK

Brian3357 said:

I totally understand that moving forward, untargetted allowances like WFA should be subject to a more means tested approach.

Which is exactly what is being done, but you have been against it in your previous posts. 

Brian3357 said:

 But at present the idea that only pensioners on tax credits qualify for WFA is inadequate as the energy crisis is still exerting pressure for hundreds of thousands of pensioners. 

Labelling something a crisis or emergency does not make it so, hyperbole is not helpful.

Brian3357 said:

On reflection, the blanket help was also driven by cost effectiveness for the government. It is more expensive to administer a means tested approach. 

It might have made sense when quick action was needed, now is time for a more considered approach, tying it to pension credit means there is only a very small increase to the means testing, but a huge reduction overall due to the removal of the blanket approach. 

Brian3357 said:

There has been some mention of the triple lock being overly generous. I disagree. It was devised to ensure the old do not fall into extreme poverty when inflation is relatively low but wages for instance surge, which is the case at present with the labour party's wage policy.

You can disagree, but you would be wrong. The issue with the triple lock is the way increases happen. 2020 average wages plummeted for obvious reasons, inflation was low, so pensions went up by the 3.9% due to wage rises from the previous year. 2021 it went up by 2.5% due to the previous year's plummeting wages and low inflation, 2022 it went up by 3.1% because inflation was higher than baseline, 2023 it went up by 10.1% as it rose with wages, however wages were actually lower than in 2019, but the year on year rise was high because it was rising from two years of economic shutdown, then followed by 8.5% in 2024. The demonstrates why the triple lock is overly generous because it makes no account for the way that inflation and wages growth can fluctuate year on year and often alternate rather than sit in sync. The state pension has risen ahead of both inflation and average wages because it always rises ahead of the higher of either, that makes it disproportionate and a burden on those working.

Brian3357 said:

Worth mentioning that the continued freeze on tax bands supported by labour is effectively a huge tax increase for all, particularly damaging those on low income including pensioners. Makes one off allowances more essential  

It is not a huge tax increase, it is a slight tax increase. The tax free allowance is already far too large and should realistically be phased out over the next decade, not increased. The EU average us €1,450 for a tax free allowance, many countries have zero tax free allowance.

Brian3357 said:

This pulls again any claim that pensioners have experienced huge increases - just not true 

It does not in any way. Pensions have risen ahead of both average wages and inflation since the triple lock was introduced. Workers are proportionately worse off than pensioners, the system has been specifically designed to benefit pensioners are the detriment of workers. 

MikeJXE

What crisis ?

I’m a pensioner age 83 on SP + £1,250 per year Private (that is taxed)

I Rent,  I have energy and water to pay, council tax, my food bill is going up. I run a car 

I Did have WFP of £300 and now I don’t. Thats how it is. 

Am I complaining ?  

NOPE but I hope my loss  helps us get out of this mess. 

Is my friend who is also retired and on 10 times what I get complaining 

Yes every day 

Brian3357

The reality is that even the national minimum wage is far, far higher than the average state pension. That is why the triple lock has been established as a safety net. 

The accumulated impact of  freezing the tax bands for years is huge. Comparisons with other countries are not really relevant unless varables are carefully balanced rather than glibly stated as "fact" .

But I know what the French would do if their pension standards were undermined! But their workers are more supportive of the elderly and hope to retire themselves with a hard earned pension-a second phase of life not on the breadline

This winter could see an increase in pensioners suffering from cold
but some would just ask them to eat cake as a remedy. Shame on labour! 

BarelySentientAI

Brian3357 said:

The reality is that even the national minimum wage is far, far higher than the average state pension. That is why the triple lock has been established as a safety net. 

The accumulated impact of  freezing the tax bands for years is huge. Comparisons with other countries are not really relevant unless varables are carefully balanced rather than glibly stated as "fact" .

But I know what the French would do if their pension standards were undermined! But their workers are more supportive of the elderly and hope to retire themselves with a hard earned pension-a second phase of life not on the breadline

This winter could see an increase in pensioners suffering from cold
but some would just ask them to eat cake as a remedy. Shame on labour! 

Fabulous swerve.