Taking Nationwide to Court

jessethome

electriccactus said:

jessethome said:

electriccactus said:

jessethome said:

electriccactus said:

jessethome said:

electriccactus said:

jessethome said:

powerful_Rogue said:

What is Nationwides defence?

Did you follow the proper process of sending a Letter Before Action prior to starting the claim?

Yes. I went through their complaints process. I set out the remedy in a letter.

They state they cannot trace it. They made no comment on the EBA. They would not comment on the IBAN the merchant provider that they tried to refund the money from. The final statement from their complaints team was to chase further with the merchant. Despite me providing them with dutch regulator file. They were simply fobbing me off.

I think they may be right (even though they are also fobbing you off.)

It is the responsibility of the retailer to get your money to you. If it goes missing, it is up to them to chase this. If the trail goes cold, it would be on them whether they wish to take action against their agent (their bank) or not but they are still responsible for getting the money to you.

I suspect that Nationwide's defence is simply going to be that you're suing the wrong entity.

I'd also note this article

https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/contact-or-visit-us/press-office/press-releases/small-claims-taking-more-than-a-year-to-reach-trial

I suspect the FOS would be much quicker than that to be honest.

The Merchant has supplied proof the money was sent to Nationwide. They have also supplied proof that nationwide/HSBC received the money and then attempted to return it to the merchant via an IBAN that the merchant couldn't possibly know. The merchant provided proof this was not accepted. Showing that the funds are in the IBAN associated with nationwide/HSBC.

I don't know how this would fall on the merchant? The Dutch regulator also ruled in favour of the merchant, stating the funds are with the nationwide/hsbc IBAN.

?

Because it is the responsibility of the retailer to get the funds to you. I'm not suggesting that they're at fault, but legally (and I am assuming Dutch law is roughly similar to UK law in this regard) they are responsible for refunding you. If it goes missing, they'll need to get it to you another way. They can then chase their agent for the money if their contract with them allows for it.

As an example if you bought something from a retailer, their responsibility doesn't end the moment they hand the package to the delivery company. If it goes missing it is not sufficient for them to say "well we handed it over to them and we did ask them where it went but they just said it last traced to your local depot so *shrug*". If it went missing they'd be responsible for sending another out or refunding you.

I don't see any difference here, regardless of how hard they've tried.

Incidentally, what is the value of the refund? Taking this as far as the Dutch banking regulator seems like an awful lot of effort to go to unless they're desperately trying to avoid being out of pocket by a significant amount.

Dutch Regulator was free. Something called Kiffld or something. It took months and in the end they said it is nationwide who is at fault as they HAVE the money in the IBAN. Bunq provided proof it had been sent, received by nationwide/HSBC and never returned to BUNQ as my account with them didnt exist anymore.

Its just under £500 now.

Nationwide/HSBC have not provided anything other then 'We can't find it, chase the merchant'

As far as I'm aware they're entitled to give that as a response, even though you may not particularly like it.

You having an account with Nationwide here is incidental. Any responsibility Nationwide has to you really only begins the moment it hits their account. And it is unclear where the trail goes cold. If it is with HSBC then Nationwide may legitimately never have received the funds, and I suspect they have very limited abilities (if any) to do a trace on incoming funds.

If Nationwide have genuinely not received the funds then I can't see how you can win this. If the trace goes as far as HSBC then you don't have evidence that Nationwide has it.

Thisi is absurd (Not your advice, but the situation).

The merchant can prove Nationwide/HSBC have the money in an account, the merchant also provided the IBAN.

Who am I supposed to make a claim against? Who would you?

The merchant cannot prove anything, international transfers don't work that way. The fact that you refer to them as Nationwide/HSBC rather proves this. You don't know who it is with.

You make a claim against the retailer, who has failed to refund you. But you'll likely need to start a claim in the Dutch courts.

The Merchant was able to provide proof of an IBAN (which was used by nationwide to attempt to refund the money back to them) to the regulator as well as forward traces and EBA's all associated with nationwide. So the IBAN was a nationwide IBAN. They could also show proof that my account no longer existed so the IBAN that nationwide attempted to refund to failed as it was not an account anymore.

This is why the regulator sided with Bunq and stated I needed to pursuit Nationwide.

Nationwide were the ones who began mentioning HSBC and could not explain why the IBAN provided by the regulator was a nationwide one...

jessethome

eskbanker said:

jessethome said:

eskbanker said:

jessethome said:

eskbanker said:

When you refer to "Nationwide/HSBC" as if they're one and the same, surely HSBC will be acting as one link in the chain between the parties, so how has it been established that the fault is Nationwide's rather than HSBC's (among other possibilities)?

Nationwide have put it to me this way. They say all their CHAPS payments (International payments) go through HSBC as they are just a building society...

Exactly, that's my point - such international transfers involve multiple parties, thereby making it more challenging to identify which is at fault when things go wrong.  If Nationwide can demonstrate that they haven't done anything wrong, and point the finger at another party, the case will fail if this is accepted by the court....

Who should I make a claim against?

The claim via the dutch regulator against Bunq went in Bunqs favour as they can prove the money is an IBAN which belongs to Nationwide and/or HSBC as apparently nationwide don't hold funds or something?

You'd need to be surer of the facts before proceeding to court action, i.e. establishing exactly which party is at fault - not saying that's easy but picking on one without sufficient credible evidence isn't likely to be productive.

I mean I tried to use logic. My account is with nationwide. The merchant provided proof of the IBAN that a refunded was attempted from and it followed the Nationwide pattern. The dutch regulator stated the fault was on the receiving bank, solicitor advised going for nationwide. Nationwide were the only ones who mentioned HSBC.

It's confusing

electriccactus

jessethome said:

electriccactus said:

jessethome said:

electriccactus said:

jessethome said:

electriccactus said:

jessethome said:

electriccactus said:

jessethome said:

powerful_Rogue said:

What is Nationwides defence?

Did you follow the proper process of sending a Letter Before Action prior to starting the claim?

Yes. I went through their complaints process. I set out the remedy in a letter.

They state they cannot trace it. They made no comment on the EBA. They would not comment on the IBAN the merchant provider that they tried to refund the money from. The final statement from their complaints team was to chase further with the merchant. Despite me providing them with dutch regulator file. They were simply fobbing me off.

I think they may be right (even though they are also fobbing you off.)

It is the responsibility of the retailer to get your money to you. If it goes missing, it is up to them to chase this. If the trail goes cold, it would be on them whether they wish to take action against their agent (their bank) or not but they are still responsible for getting the money to you.

I suspect that Nationwide's defence is simply going to be that you're suing the wrong entity.

I'd also note this article

https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/contact-or-visit-us/press-office/press-releases/small-claims-taking-more-than-a-year-to-reach-trial

I suspect the FOS would be much quicker than that to be honest.

The Merchant has supplied proof the money was sent to Nationwide. They have also supplied proof that nationwide/HSBC received the money and then attempted to return it to the merchant via an IBAN that the merchant couldn't possibly know. The merchant provided proof this was not accepted. Showing that the funds are in the IBAN associated with nationwide/HSBC.

I don't know how this would fall on the merchant? The Dutch regulator also ruled in favour of the merchant, stating the funds are with the nationwide/hsbc IBAN.

?

Because it is the responsibility of the retailer to get the funds to you. I'm not suggesting that they're at fault, but legally (and I am assuming Dutch law is roughly similar to UK law in this regard) they are responsible for refunding you. If it goes missing, they'll need to get it to you another way. They can then chase their agent for the money if their contract with them allows for it.

As an example if you bought something from a retailer, their responsibility doesn't end the moment they hand the package to the delivery company. If it goes missing it is not sufficient for them to say "well we handed it over to them and we did ask them where it went but they just said it last traced to your local depot so *shrug*". If it went missing they'd be responsible for sending another out or refunding you.

I don't see any difference here, regardless of how hard they've tried.

Incidentally, what is the value of the refund? Taking this as far as the Dutch banking regulator seems like an awful lot of effort to go to unless they're desperately trying to avoid being out of pocket by a significant amount.

Dutch Regulator was free. Something called Kiffld or something. It took months and in the end they said it is nationwide who is at fault as they HAVE the money in the IBAN. Bunq provided proof it had been sent, received by nationwide/HSBC and never returned to BUNQ as my account with them didnt exist anymore.

Its just under £500 now.

Nationwide/HSBC have not provided anything other then 'We can't find it, chase the merchant'

As far as I'm aware they're entitled to give that as a response, even though you may not particularly like it.

You having an account with Nationwide here is incidental. Any responsibility Nationwide has to you really only begins the moment it hits their account. And it is unclear where the trail goes cold. If it is with HSBC then Nationwide may legitimately never have received the funds, and I suspect they have very limited abilities (if any) to do a trace on incoming funds.

If Nationwide have genuinely not received the funds then I can't see how you can win this. If the trace goes as far as HSBC then you don't have evidence that Nationwide has it.

Thisi is absurd (Not your advice, but the situation).

The merchant can prove Nationwide/HSBC have the money in an account, the merchant also provided the IBAN.

Who am I supposed to make a claim against? Who would you?

The merchant cannot prove anything, international transfers don't work that way. The fact that you refer to them as Nationwide/HSBC rather proves this. You don't know who it is with.

You make a claim against the retailer, who has failed to refund you. But you'll likely need to start a claim in the Dutch courts.

The Merchant was able to provide proof of an IBAN (which was used by nationwide to attempt to refund the money back to them) to the regulator as well as forward traces and EBA's all associated with nationwide. So the IBAN was a nationwide IBAN. They could also show proof that my account no longer existed so the IBAN that nationwide attempted to refund to failed as it was not an account anymore.

This is why the regulator sided with Bunq and stated I needed to pursuit Nationwide.

Nationwide were the ones who began mentioning HSBC and could not explain why the IBAN provided by the regulator was a nationwide one...

The IBAN is a Nationwide one because it was going to a Nationwide account. HSBC however are the intermediary so all international payments go through them. You can tell this by going to https://www.nationwide.co.uk/help/payments/bic-iban/

Banks that make and receive their own international payments do not have intermediary BICs.

Again, the retailer is responsible for refunding you. They cannot hand the money to a third party and wash their hands of it. If the money did not get where it was supposed to go then they need to request the money back from their bank but that's their problem, not yours.

PHK

This all very confusing. The Dutch regulator doesn’t investigate complaints. The Arbitration Commission of Kifid would if you haven’t reached agreement with Bunq through mediation. 

EBA is European Banking Authority, but is sometimes used to describe the European clearing mechanism.  

I’m guessing the payment went via SWIFT?

There will have been multiple intermediaries involved. How have you narrowed down that it’s Nationwide that have done something wrong. 

Hoenir

jessethome said:

eskbanker said:

When you refer to "Nationwide/HSBC" as if they're one and the same, surely HSBC will be acting as one link in the chain between the parties, so how has it been established that the fault is Nationwide's rather than HSBC's (among other possibilities)?

Nationwide have put it to me this way. They say all their CHAPS payments (International payments) go through HSBC as they are just a building society...

Factually correct. HSBC are a clearing bank the Nationwide isn't. 

Hoenir

jessethome said:

electriccactus said:

jessethome said:

electriccactus said:

jessethome said:

powerful_Rogue said:

What is Nationwides defence?

Did you follow the proper process of sending a Letter Before Action prior to starting the claim?

Yes. I went through their complaints process. I set out the remedy in a letter.

They state they cannot trace it. They made no comment on the EBA. They would not comment on the IBAN the merchant provider that they tried to refund the money from. The final statement from their complaints team was to chase further with the merchant. Despite me providing them with dutch regulator file. They were simply fobbing me off.

I think they may be right (even though they are also fobbing you off.)

It is the responsibility of the retailer to get your money to you. If it goes missing, it is up to them to chase this. If the trail goes cold, it would be on them whether they wish to take action against their agent (their bank) or not but they are still responsible for getting the money to you.

I suspect that Nationwide's defence is simply going to be that you're suing the wrong entity.

I'd also note this article

https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/contact-or-visit-us/press-office/press-releases/small-claims-taking-more-than-a-year-to-reach-trial

I suspect the FOS would be much quicker than that to be honest.

The Merchant has supplied proof the money was sent to Nationwide. They have also supplied proof that nationwide/HSBC received the money and then attempted to return it to the merchant via an IBAN that the merchant couldn't possibly know. The merchant provided proof this was not accepted. Showing that the funds are in the IBAN associated with nationwide/HSBC.

I don't know how this would fall on the merchant? The Dutch regulator also ruled in favour of the merchant, stating the funds are with the nationwide/hsbc IBAN.

?

Because it is the responsibility of the retailer to get the funds to you. I'm not suggesting that they're at fault, but legally (and I am assuming Dutch law is roughly similar to UK law in this regard) they are responsible for refunding you. If it goes missing, they'll need to get it to you another way. They can then chase their agent for the money if their contract with them allows for it.

As an example if you bought something from a retailer, their responsibility doesn't end the moment they hand the package to the delivery company. If it goes missing it is not sufficient for them to say "well we handed it over to them and we did ask them where it went but they just said it last traced to your local depot so *shrug*". If it went missing they'd be responsible for sending another out or refunding you.

I don't see any difference here, regardless of how hard they've tried.

Incidentally, what is the value of the refund? Taking this as far as the Dutch banking regulator seems like an awful lot of effort to go to unless they're desperately trying to avoid being out of pocket by a significant amount.

 received by nationwide/HSBC and never returned to BUNQ as my account with them didnt exist anymore.

As the merchant refunded the money why would it be returned to your own account with BUNQ ?  Likewise what connection does you closing your account with BUNQ have with the transaction. 

It's the merchant that owes you the money. You've no relationship with the banks either. 

RefluentBeans

OP if you have legal advice - you should seek their opinions over a free (and not legal advice) forum. But not all lawyers specialise in the same thing, and so a property lawyer may not be as clued up on the workings and intricacies of international banking regs (which you are now seeing is a minefield!). 

If you have proper legal advice - raise this with them. If they said it in passing (and importantly - wouldn’t be willing to represent you…) then you should seek ‘proper’ legal advice.

The issue is going to be that you’ve already started legal proceedings. I don’t pretend to know about international banking, but know it is a minefield. You need to be sure that you are suing the right person. You can’t sue Nationwide/HSBC. You need to sue one or the other. Also you need to be clear on how they have breached terms and/or regulations and/or deprived you of rights. If the bank defends (they may not for a relatively small claim / but they may well) they will come out strong - so you need to be sure you have a compelling and coherent story. 

Undervalued

jessethome said:

I was advised due to the length of time they take.

I was speaking with my solicitor who handled a porperty for me and he said just go straight to small claims .

Well, it might be quicker to go to court but that is irrelevant unless you win. If you lose that is the end of the matter as you can't then go to the FOS.

With all respect to your solicitor (who presumably has all the facts and relevant experience??) unless you are desperate for the 400 quid ASAP it still seems to me to be better to have two bites at the cherry.

born_again

Undervalued said:

jessethome said:

I was advised due to the length of time they take.

I was speaking with my solicitor who handled a porperty for me and he said just go straight to small claims .

Well, it might be quicker to go to court but that is irrelevant unless you win. If you lose that is the end of the matter as you can't then go to the FOS.

With all respect to your solicitor (who presumably has all the facts and relevant experience??) unless you are desperate for the 400 quid ASAP it still seems to me to be better to have two bites at the cherry.

Exactly.

OP go via FOS 1st. Hoping that you have already have a complaint in place on this subject. Clearly you have been at this for months, so what is a few more?

BestnamesRgone

I’ll be following this thread with interest. I’m going through a similar thing waiting on a payment sent from a German bank which has gone via HSBC and has not reached my account with Nationwide. I’m currently asking the account holder with the German bank to instruct their bank to do a trace request but they appear not to understand telling me they’ve given me the iban number for HSBC so what’s the problem 🤬