Taking Nationwide to Court

eskbanker

When you refer to "Nationwide/HSBC" as if they're one and the same, surely HSBC will be acting as one link in the chain between the parties, so how has it been established that the fault is Nationwide's rather than HSBC's (among other possibilities)?

electriccactus

jessethome said:

electriccactus said:

jessethome said:

powerful_Rogue said:

What is Nationwides defence?

Did you follow the proper process of sending a Letter Before Action prior to starting the claim?

Yes. I went through their complaints process. I set out the remedy in a letter.

They state they cannot trace it. They made no comment on the EBA. They would not comment on the IBAN the merchant provider that they tried to refund the money from. The final statement from their complaints team was to chase further with the merchant. Despite me providing them with dutch regulator file. They were simply fobbing me off.

I think they may be right (even though they are also fobbing you off.)

It is the responsibility of the retailer to get your money to you. If it goes missing, it is up to them to chase this. If the trail goes cold, it would be on them whether they wish to take action against their agent (their bank) or not but they are still responsible for getting the money to you.

I suspect that Nationwide's defence is simply going to be that you're suing the wrong entity.

I'd also note this article

https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/contact-or-visit-us/press-office/press-releases/small-claims-taking-more-than-a-year-to-reach-trial

I suspect the FOS would be much quicker than that to be honest.

The Merchant has supplied proof the money was sent to Nationwide. They have also supplied proof that nationwide/HSBC received the money and then attempted to return it to the merchant via an IBAN that the merchant couldn't possibly know. The merchant provided proof this was not accepted. Showing that the funds are in the IBAN associated with nationwide/HSBC.

I don't know how this would fall on the merchant? The Dutch regulator also ruled in favour of the merchant, stating the funds are with the nationwide/hsbc IBAN.

?

Because it is the responsibility of the retailer to get the funds to you. I'm not suggesting that they're at fault, but legally (and I am assuming Dutch law is roughly similar to UK law in this regard) they are responsible for refunding you. If it goes missing, they'll need to get it to you another way. They can then chase their agent for the money if their contract with them allows for it.

As an example if you bought something from a retailer, their responsibility doesn't end the moment they hand the package to the delivery company. If it goes missing it is not sufficient for them to say "well we handed it over to them and we did ask them where it went but they just said it last traced to your local depot so *shrug*". If it went missing they'd be responsible for sending another out or refunding you.

I don't see any difference here, regardless of how hard they've tried.

Edit: I see it is for £440. That's a lot of effort to go to to avoid just resending the cash.

jessethome

electriccactus said:

jessethome said:

electriccactus said:

jessethome said:

powerful_Rogue said:

What is Nationwides defence?

Did you follow the proper process of sending a Letter Before Action prior to starting the claim?

Yes. I went through their complaints process. I set out the remedy in a letter.

They state they cannot trace it. They made no comment on the EBA. They would not comment on the IBAN the merchant provider that they tried to refund the money from. The final statement from their complaints team was to chase further with the merchant. Despite me providing them with dutch regulator file. They were simply fobbing me off.

I think they may be right (even though they are also fobbing you off.)

It is the responsibility of the retailer to get your money to you. If it goes missing, it is up to them to chase this. If the trail goes cold, it would be on them whether they wish to take action against their agent (their bank) or not but they are still responsible for getting the money to you.

I suspect that Nationwide's defence is simply going to be that you're suing the wrong entity.

I'd also note this article

https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/contact-or-visit-us/press-office/press-releases/small-claims-taking-more-than-a-year-to-reach-trial

I suspect the FOS would be much quicker than that to be honest.

The Merchant has supplied proof the money was sent to Nationwide. They have also supplied proof that nationwide/HSBC received the money and then attempted to return it to the merchant via an IBAN that the merchant couldn't possibly know. The merchant provided proof this was not accepted. Showing that the funds are in the IBAN associated with nationwide/HSBC.

I don't know how this would fall on the merchant? The Dutch regulator also ruled in favour of the merchant, stating the funds are with the nationwide/hsbc IBAN.

?

Because it is the responsibility of the retailer to get the funds to you. I'm not suggesting that they're at fault, but legally (and I am assuming Dutch law is roughly similar to UK law in this regard) they are responsible for refunding you. If it goes missing, they'll need to get it to you another way. They can then chase their agent for the money if their contract with them allows for it.

As an example if you bought something from a retailer, their responsibility doesn't end the moment they hand the package to the delivery company. If it goes missing it is not sufficient for them to say "well we handed it over to them and we did ask them where it went but they just said it last traced to your local depot so *shrug*". If it went missing they'd be responsible for sending another out or refunding you.

I don't see any difference here, regardless of how hard they've tried.

Incidentally, what is the value of the refund? Taking this as far as the Dutch banking regulator seems like an awful lot of effort to go to unless they're desperately trying to avoid being out of pocket by a significant amount.

Dutch Regulator was free. Something called Kiffld or something. It took months and in the end they said it is nationwide who is at fault as they HAVE the money in the IBAN. Bunq provided proof it had been sent, received by nationwide/HSBC and never returned to BUNQ as my account with them didnt exist anymore.

Its just under £500 now.

Nationwide/HSBC have not provided anything other then 'We can't find it, chase the merchant'

jessethome

eskbanker said:

When you refer to "Nationwide/HSBC" as if they're one and the same, surely HSBC will be acting as one link in the chain between the parties, so how has it been established that the fault is Nationwide's rather than HSBC's (among other possibilities)?

Nationwide have put it to me this way. They say all their CHAPS payments (International payments) go through HSBC as they are just a building society...

eskbanker

jessethome said:

eskbanker said:

When you refer to "Nationwide/HSBC" as if they're one and the same, surely HSBC will be acting as one link in the chain between the parties, so how has it been established that the fault is Nationwide's rather than HSBC's (among other possibilities)?

Nationwide have put it to me this way. They say all their CHAPS payments (International payments) go through HSBC as they are just a building society...

Exactly, that's my point - such international transfers involve multiple parties, thereby making it more challenging to identify which is at fault when things go wrong.  If Nationwide can demonstrate that they haven't done anything wrong, and point the finger at another party, the case will fail if this is accepted by the court....

electriccactus

jessethome said:

electriccactus said:

jessethome said:

electriccactus said:

jessethome said:

powerful_Rogue said:

What is Nationwides defence?

Did you follow the proper process of sending a Letter Before Action prior to starting the claim?

Yes. I went through their complaints process. I set out the remedy in a letter.

They state they cannot trace it. They made no comment on the EBA. They would not comment on the IBAN the merchant provider that they tried to refund the money from. The final statement from their complaints team was to chase further with the merchant. Despite me providing them with dutch regulator file. They were simply fobbing me off.

I think they may be right (even though they are also fobbing you off.)

It is the responsibility of the retailer to get your money to you. If it goes missing, it is up to them to chase this. If the trail goes cold, it would be on them whether they wish to take action against their agent (their bank) or not but they are still responsible for getting the money to you.

I suspect that Nationwide's defence is simply going to be that you're suing the wrong entity.

I'd also note this article

https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/contact-or-visit-us/press-office/press-releases/small-claims-taking-more-than-a-year-to-reach-trial

I suspect the FOS would be much quicker than that to be honest.

The Merchant has supplied proof the money was sent to Nationwide. They have also supplied proof that nationwide/HSBC received the money and then attempted to return it to the merchant via an IBAN that the merchant couldn't possibly know. The merchant provided proof this was not accepted. Showing that the funds are in the IBAN associated with nationwide/HSBC.

I don't know how this would fall on the merchant? The Dutch regulator also ruled in favour of the merchant, stating the funds are with the nationwide/hsbc IBAN.

?

Because it is the responsibility of the retailer to get the funds to you. I'm not suggesting that they're at fault, but legally (and I am assuming Dutch law is roughly similar to UK law in this regard) they are responsible for refunding you. If it goes missing, they'll need to get it to you another way. They can then chase their agent for the money if their contract with them allows for it.

As an example if you bought something from a retailer, their responsibility doesn't end the moment they hand the package to the delivery company. If it goes missing it is not sufficient for them to say "well we handed it over to them and we did ask them where it went but they just said it last traced to your local depot so *shrug*". If it went missing they'd be responsible for sending another out or refunding you.

I don't see any difference here, regardless of how hard they've tried.

Incidentally, what is the value of the refund? Taking this as far as the Dutch banking regulator seems like an awful lot of effort to go to unless they're desperately trying to avoid being out of pocket by a significant amount.

Dutch Regulator was free. Something called Kiffld or something. It took months and in the end they said it is nationwide who is at fault as they HAVE the money in the IBAN. Bunq provided proof it had been sent, received by nationwide/HSBC and never returned to BUNQ as my account with them didnt exist anymore.

Its just under £500 now.

Nationwide/HSBC have not provided anything other then 'We can't find it, chase the merchant'

As far as I'm aware they're entitled to give that as a response, even though you may not particularly like it.

You having an account with Nationwide here is incidental. Any responsibility Nationwide has to you really only begins the moment it hits their account. And it is unclear where the trail goes cold. If it is with HSBC then Nationwide may legitimately never have received the funds, and I suspect they have very limited abilities (if any) to do a trace on incoming funds.

If Nationwide have genuinely not received the funds then I can't see how you can win this. If the trace goes as far as HSBC then you don't have evidence that Nationwide has it.

jessethome

electriccactus said:

jessethome said:

electriccactus said:

jessethome said:

electriccactus said:

jessethome said:

powerful_Rogue said:

What is Nationwides defence?

Did you follow the proper process of sending a Letter Before Action prior to starting the claim?

Yes. I went through their complaints process. I set out the remedy in a letter.

They state they cannot trace it. They made no comment on the EBA. They would not comment on the IBAN the merchant provider that they tried to refund the money from. The final statement from their complaints team was to chase further with the merchant. Despite me providing them with dutch regulator file. They were simply fobbing me off.

I think they may be right (even though they are also fobbing you off.)

It is the responsibility of the retailer to get your money to you. If it goes missing, it is up to them to chase this. If the trail goes cold, it would be on them whether they wish to take action against their agent (their bank) or not but they are still responsible for getting the money to you.

I suspect that Nationwide's defence is simply going to be that you're suing the wrong entity.

I'd also note this article

https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/contact-or-visit-us/press-office/press-releases/small-claims-taking-more-than-a-year-to-reach-trial

I suspect the FOS would be much quicker than that to be honest.

The Merchant has supplied proof the money was sent to Nationwide. They have also supplied proof that nationwide/HSBC received the money and then attempted to return it to the merchant via an IBAN that the merchant couldn't possibly know. The merchant provided proof this was not accepted. Showing that the funds are in the IBAN associated with nationwide/HSBC.

I don't know how this would fall on the merchant? The Dutch regulator also ruled in favour of the merchant, stating the funds are with the nationwide/hsbc IBAN.

?

Because it is the responsibility of the retailer to get the funds to you. I'm not suggesting that they're at fault, but legally (and I am assuming Dutch law is roughly similar to UK law in this regard) they are responsible for refunding you. If it goes missing, they'll need to get it to you another way. They can then chase their agent for the money if their contract with them allows for it.

As an example if you bought something from a retailer, their responsibility doesn't end the moment they hand the package to the delivery company. If it goes missing it is not sufficient for them to say "well we handed it over to them and we did ask them where it went but they just said it last traced to your local depot so *shrug*". If it went missing they'd be responsible for sending another out or refunding you.

I don't see any difference here, regardless of how hard they've tried.

Incidentally, what is the value of the refund? Taking this as far as the Dutch banking regulator seems like an awful lot of effort to go to unless they're desperately trying to avoid being out of pocket by a significant amount.

Dutch Regulator was free. Something called Kiffld or something. It took months and in the end they said it is nationwide who is at fault as they HAVE the money in the IBAN. Bunq provided proof it had been sent, received by nationwide/HSBC and never returned to BUNQ as my account with them didnt exist anymore.

Its just under £500 now.

Nationwide/HSBC have not provided anything other then 'We can't find it, chase the merchant'

As far as I'm aware they're entitled to give that as a response, even though you may not particularly like it.

You having an account with Nationwide here is incidental. Any responsibility Nationwide has to you really only begins the moment it hits their account. And it is unclear where the trail goes cold. If it is with HSBC then Nationwide may legitimately never have received the funds, and I suspect they have very limited abilities (if any) to do a trace on incoming funds.

If Nationwide have genuinely not received the funds then I can't see how you can win this. If the trace goes as far as HSBC then you don't have evidence that Nationwide has it.

Thisi is absurd (Not your advice, but the situation).

The merchant can prove Nationwide/HSBC have the money in an account, the merchant also provided the IBAN.

Who am I supposed to make a claim against? Who would you?

jessethome

eskbanker said:

jessethome said:

eskbanker said:

When you refer to "Nationwide/HSBC" as if they're one and the same, surely HSBC will be acting as one link in the chain between the parties, so how has it been established that the fault is Nationwide's rather than HSBC's (among other possibilities)?

Nationwide have put it to me this way. They say all their CHAPS payments (International payments) go through HSBC as they are just a building society...

Exactly, that's my point - such international transfers involve multiple parties, thereby making it more challenging to identify which is at fault when things go wrong.  If Nationwide can demonstrate that they haven't done anything wrong, and point the finger at another party, the case will fail if this is accepted by the court....

Who should I make a claim against?

The claim via the dutch regulator against Bunq went in Bunqs favour as they can prove the money is an IBAN which belongs to Nationwide and/or HSBC as apparently nationwide don't hold funds or something?

electriccactus

jessethome said:

electriccactus said:

jessethome said:

electriccactus said:

jessethome said:

electriccactus said:

jessethome said:

powerful_Rogue said:

What is Nationwides defence?

Did you follow the proper process of sending a Letter Before Action prior to starting the claim?

Yes. I went through their complaints process. I set out the remedy in a letter.

They state they cannot trace it. They made no comment on the EBA. They would not comment on the IBAN the merchant provider that they tried to refund the money from. The final statement from their complaints team was to chase further with the merchant. Despite me providing them with dutch regulator file. They were simply fobbing me off.

I think they may be right (even though they are also fobbing you off.)

It is the responsibility of the retailer to get your money to you. If it goes missing, it is up to them to chase this. If the trail goes cold, it would be on them whether they wish to take action against their agent (their bank) or not but they are still responsible for getting the money to you.

I suspect that Nationwide's defence is simply going to be that you're suing the wrong entity.

I'd also note this article

https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/contact-or-visit-us/press-office/press-releases/small-claims-taking-more-than-a-year-to-reach-trial

I suspect the FOS would be much quicker than that to be honest.

The Merchant has supplied proof the money was sent to Nationwide. They have also supplied proof that nationwide/HSBC received the money and then attempted to return it to the merchant via an IBAN that the merchant couldn't possibly know. The merchant provided proof this was not accepted. Showing that the funds are in the IBAN associated with nationwide/HSBC.

I don't know how this would fall on the merchant? The Dutch regulator also ruled in favour of the merchant, stating the funds are with the nationwide/hsbc IBAN.

?

Because it is the responsibility of the retailer to get the funds to you. I'm not suggesting that they're at fault, but legally (and I am assuming Dutch law is roughly similar to UK law in this regard) they are responsible for refunding you. If it goes missing, they'll need to get it to you another way. They can then chase their agent for the money if their contract with them allows for it.

As an example if you bought something from a retailer, their responsibility doesn't end the moment they hand the package to the delivery company. If it goes missing it is not sufficient for them to say "well we handed it over to them and we did ask them where it went but they just said it last traced to your local depot so *shrug*". If it went missing they'd be responsible for sending another out or refunding you.

I don't see any difference here, regardless of how hard they've tried.

Incidentally, what is the value of the refund? Taking this as far as the Dutch banking regulator seems like an awful lot of effort to go to unless they're desperately trying to avoid being out of pocket by a significant amount.

Dutch Regulator was free. Something called Kiffld or something. It took months and in the end they said it is nationwide who is at fault as they HAVE the money in the IBAN. Bunq provided proof it had been sent, received by nationwide/HSBC and never returned to BUNQ as my account with them didnt exist anymore.

Its just under £500 now.

Nationwide/HSBC have not provided anything other then 'We can't find it, chase the merchant'

As far as I'm aware they're entitled to give that as a response, even though you may not particularly like it.

You having an account with Nationwide here is incidental. Any responsibility Nationwide has to you really only begins the moment it hits their account. And it is unclear where the trail goes cold. If it is with HSBC then Nationwide may legitimately never have received the funds, and I suspect they have very limited abilities (if any) to do a trace on incoming funds.

If Nationwide have genuinely not received the funds then I can't see how you can win this. If the trace goes as far as HSBC then you don't have evidence that Nationwide has it.

Thisi is absurd (Not your advice, but the situation).

The merchant can prove Nationwide/HSBC have the money in an account, the merchant also provided the IBAN.

Who am I supposed to make a claim against? Who would you?

The merchant cannot prove anything, international transfers don't work that way. The fact that you refer to them as Nationwide/HSBC rather proves this. You don't know who it is with.

You make a claim against the retailer, who has failed to refund you. But you'll likely need to start a claim in the Dutch courts.

eskbanker

jessethome said:

eskbanker said:

jessethome said:

eskbanker said:

When you refer to "Nationwide/HSBC" as if they're one and the same, surely HSBC will be acting as one link in the chain between the parties, so how has it been established that the fault is Nationwide's rather than HSBC's (among other possibilities)?

Nationwide have put it to me this way. They say all their CHAPS payments (International payments) go through HSBC as they are just a building society...

Exactly, that's my point - such international transfers involve multiple parties, thereby making it more challenging to identify which is at fault when things go wrong.  If Nationwide can demonstrate that they haven't done anything wrong, and point the finger at another party, the case will fail if this is accepted by the court....

Who should I make a claim against?

The claim via the dutch regulator against Bunq went in Bunqs favour as they can prove the money is an IBAN which belongs to Nationwide and/or HSBC as apparently nationwide don't hold funds or something?

You'd need to be surer of the facts before proceeding to court action, i.e. establishing exactly which party is at fault - not saying that's easy but picking on one without sufficient credible evidence isn't likely to be productive.