What's the ultimate punishment for a speeding ticket?

Okell

TooManyPoints said:

I'm trying - perhaps too obliquely - to get them to enquire further of their elderly friend as to what the actual circumstances really are,...

Who do you mean by "them"?

There are two ways this can be revisited and both involve the Magistrates' Court. Nobody else can "enquire further" into it....

By "them" I am referring to the OP (@Brie) in answer to an earlier post from @Car_54 directed to me.

The OP is asking what "the ultimate" penalty for ignoring a speeding fine is.  They are asking on behalf of an elderly friend.  As I suspect that the friend might actually have a fine for a failure to identify conviction rather than for a speeding conviction, I was suggeting that the OP might want to "enquire further" of their friend as to the exact circumstances regarding this fine.

Once the OP has ascertained by further enquiry of their friend what the exact nature of the fine and conviction is, contributors here might be able to give the OP more useful advice as to how to proceed.

As I said in my post you quoted, perhaps I was being too oblique and not explicit enough in what I thought was obvious ...

Brie

Yes @OkellI think you are right that it's a failure to identify rather than the actual speeding fine though I would have thought the fine was bundled in there too.  (or not?)  But I assume that means that the individual is responsible then for payment without trying to make any excuses about what they didn't do and why and who was actually speeding.  I'll check to see if they still have their driving license and perhaps suggest it be cancelled if their not actually going to ever use it.    

FYI - I've talked to the enforcement officer and they will be satisfied with payment in full today otherwise will book the individual for a court hearing at some future date (which I assume might mean more ££ to pay?) and then the magistrate can review the situation and agree a payment plan if they think that suitable.  

JosephK

A further thought, if the 80yr old is the insured but not driving and a named driver is actually the main driver they could be accused by insurance company of "fronting"

caprikid1

JosephK said:

A further thought, if the 80yr old is the insured but not driving and a named driver is actually the main driver they could be accused by insurance company of "fronting"

That is the clear definition of fronting but I believe it possible to state that a named driver will do the majority of the miles. So long as it is clear with the insurance company , this on the face of it is the fronting, especially if it's a considerably younger driver who would be a higher risk and charged accordingly

Brie

Thanks again - I hadn't thought of the issue of fronting.  Will need to ask about that as well.  

jimjames

JosephK said:

A further thought, if the 80yr old is the insured but not driving and a named driver is actually the main driver they could be accused by insurance company of "fronting"

Just because you're a named driver doesn't mean you're not the main driver of the policy. Policy holder isn't always the main driver but worth OP checking

Betterthanlife

Car_54 said:

The "individual" will have been convicted in his absence of failing to identify the driver. He will have been given a heavy fine plus a 40% surcharge, plus prosecution costs of c£600. 

Criminal courts can indeed arrest for unpaid fines - these are not like parking tickets.

He will also have six points on his licence, and an endorsement code (MS90) which will mean swingeing increases in insurance costs for the next few years.

If he had a valid reason not to respond, the experts at ftla.uk may have good advice on how to proceed. However, it may well be too late: the pragmatic course may be to pay up now to stave off arrest, and argue later.

Long story behind it but family member ended up with MS90, but  surprisingly the insurance didnt go up that much, £350 to £470pa but will vary person to person I guess. The speeding charge was dropped due to lack of evidence (couldnt identify the driver -s172 never returned)and too much lapsed time from the date of the speeding offence 

TooManyPoints

The answer to the OP's question is that the ultimate penalty for speeding is a fine of up to £1,000 (£2,500 if the offence was on a motorway) and either six points or a disqualification for so long as the court considers appropriate. If the fine remains unpaid after efforts have been made to collect it the court can impose a prison sentence (though that would be for non-payment of the fine, not the speeding offence - you cannot be sent to prison for speeding, no matter how many times you do it or how fast you travel). The court would not normally do so until a "means enquiry" had been conducted into the defendant's circumstances and they concluded that he had demonstrated either culpable neglect (i.e. had the money but decided to spend it on something else) or wilful refusal to pay. If the defendant refuses to attend court to participate in this process the court can (and usually would) issue a warrant without bail to ensure his attendance.

However, that is all by the way. From the description it is almost certain that this individual has been convicted under s172 of the Road Traffic Act for "failing to provide driver's details."  The maximum sentence for this is the same as for speeding (though the fine is capped at £1,000 regardless of where the underlying speeding offence occurred). The same enforcement measures are available if the fine remains unpaid (as they are for any fine imposed by a court).

To clarify one part of what we have been told::

And presumably there would have been further posts sent which should have been responded to, fine paid, whatever.  But that didn't happen.

If the original request for driver's details went unanswered there would be no further opportunity to pay any penalty. The offence under s172 can only be dealt with by court proceedings and the police would have issued a "Single Justice Procedure Notice" (SJPN) to the defendant to begin those proceedings. That notice asks for a plea and if it went unanswered the matter would be heard in the defendant's absence and without his input. The result would be the fine (and any sundry costs and surcharges) that is now being sought.  

There are two ways to get the court to revisit this case:

1. If the defendant was unaware of the proceedings against him he can perform a "Statutory Declaration" (SD) to have his conviction and any penalties arising from it set aside. He can perform this before the court. If he does so within 21 days of learning of his conviction the court must hear his declaration. If he does so beyond that period, they may hear it at their discretion. If his conviction is set aside, the court process begins again and he will be asked to enter a plea.

2. If an SD is not appropriate he can ask the court to re-open his case under s142 of the Magistrates' Court Act. The court has the power to do this where they believe it is in the interests of justice to do so and they can set aside or modify any conviction and penalties as they see fit. There is no time limit on any such request.

It seems, from what we're told, that all the paperwork associated with this matter was ignored. If that is so it seems unlikely that the conviction will be ultimately overturned. The only question that would remain in that event is whether the financial penalty was in accordance with Magistrates' guidelines. Fines are income related and where no information on the defendant's means is available they are based on a default income of £440 pw. If the individual has an income significantly below that it may be worthwhile trying to get the sentence reduced.

But if there has been a significant delay between him discovering that he had been convicted and making a request under either of the two options above, the court is unlikely to agree to that request.

Okell

Brie said:

Yes @OkellI think you are right that it's a failure to identify rather than the actual speeding fine though I would have thought the fine was bundled in there too.  (or not?)  But I assume that means that the individual is responsible then for payment without trying to make any excuses about what they didn't do and why and who was actually speeding.  I'll check to see if they still have their driving license and perhaps suggest it be cancelled if their not actually going to ever use it.    

FYI - I've talked to the enforcement officer and they will be satisfied with payment in full today otherwise will book the individual for a court hearing at some future date (which I assume might mean more ££ to pay?) and then the magistrate can review the situation and agree a payment plan if they think that suitable.  

If you want to find out what your friend was actually fined for (and I would if I were you and I were trying to help them) and if you can't find all the paperwork, you should go online at the DVLA and check your friend's driving licence for penalty points and an endorsement code.  6 points and an endorsement code of MS90 would mean they'd been convicted of failing to identify the driver.

(In fact probably easier to go online first rather than trying to trace paperwork from months or a year ago).

Edit:  You might also want to look into what TooManyPoints has said about checking that the court fined your friend at the appropriate level.  If your friend failed to engage at all with the process and was fined at the "default" level, it might have been higher than it should have been.  But perhaps it's been left to long to review]

Car_54

Okell said:

Brie said:

Yes @OkellI think you are right that it's a failure to identify rather than the actual speeding fine though I would have thought the fine was bundled in there too.  (or not?)  But I assume that means that the individual is responsible then for payment without trying to make any excuses about what they didn't do and why and who was actually speeding.  I'll check to see if they still have their driving license and perhaps suggest it be cancelled if their not actually going to ever use it.    

FYI - I've talked to the enforcement officer and they will be satisfied with payment in full today otherwise will book the individual for a court hearing at some future date (which I assume might mean more ££ to pay?) and then the magistrate can review the situation and agree a payment plan if they think that suitable.  

If you want to find out what your friend was actually fined for (and I would if I were you and I were trying to help them) and if you can't find all the paperwork, you should go online at the DVLA and check your friend's driving licence for penalty points and an endorsement code.  6 points and an endorsement code of MS90 would mean they'd been convicted of failing to identify the driver.

But if you do so,  the DVLA website will remind you that "It’s a criminal offence to obtain someone else’s personal information without their permission."