Is range on EV reason to return under "short term right to reject" of Consumer Rights Act?

Aylesbury_Duck

rndb2023 said:

'Figures for battery electric vehicles were obtained after the battery had been fully charged'
I think this is the point though, when picked up, with no prior driving history (other than couple of delivery miles) so therefore no real memory of driving style etc I don't feel it is unrealistic to expect, at that point, it to show a range within the quoted figures of 320-340 miles. As it happens, my vehicle is the exact spec of the vehicle 'in the adverts'. 

Born_Again - I don't think I have answered my own question. The point being, one expects not to get the quoted mpg, or ml/kw but from brand new you expect it show that the range when fully charged is within the quoted value. it is not.

You should reject the car, then.  

Grumpy_chap

rndb2023 said:

Born_Again - I don't think I have answered my own question. The point being, one expects not to get the quoted mpg, or ml/kw but from brand new you expect it show that the range when fully charged is within the quoted value. it is not.

Well, range and mpg or m/kWh are two ways of expressing the same thing.

Take an ICE car.  50 mpg (test) and 10 gallon fuel tank so that is a "range" of 500 miles.  But you accept you will not get 50 mpg, so that means you will not get 500 miles.

Exactly the same equivalent for an EV.  4 m/kWh (test) and 70 kWh battery so that is a "range" of 280 miles.  But you accept you will not get the test energy 4 m/kWh, so that means you will not get the 280 miles.

The fuel tank or the battery size are fixed for the given vehicle (litres or kWh).  The economy test is working out energy consumed for distance travelled (mpg or m/kWh).  If the economy is not achieved, the range is reduced accordingly, whether ICE or EV.

DullGreyGuy

My last car was supposed to get 31mpg according to official test data. In the first month probably got about 18 mpg, clearly right foot heavy. Later was getting about 28 mpg, the average according to various sites is 26mpg. 

Most quote things like the WLTP Combined which for one says at all times the temp is 23C, test is 30 minutes over 4 speeds. Whilst it gives a like for like comparison its not real world driving and what's best for you may vary depending on where you live, how you drive etc. 

On that basis I wouldn't expect the delivery vehicle to think I will get WLTP range and so would expect it to be lower. Depending on how it the system averages it could be very heavily influenced initially by those delivery miles as the system has no other reference data. 

Ultimately you can attempt to reject the vehicle but you are likely to find they'll reject it subject to what resolution you want. 

born_again

rndb2023 said:

'Figures for battery electric vehicles were obtained after the battery had been fully charged'
I think this is the point though, when picked up, with no prior driving history (other than couple of delivery miles) so therefore no real memory of driving style etc I don't feel it is unrealistic to expect, at that point, it to show a range within the quoted figures of 320-340 miles. As it happens, my vehicle is the exact spec of the vehicle 'in the adverts'. 

Born_Again - I don't think I have answered my own question. The point being, one expects not to get the quoted mpg, or ml/kw but from brand new you expect it show that the range when fully charged is within the quoted value. it is not.

While it only has a couple of miles on. The car is not shipped to Uk with a fully charged battery & is driven by drivers who are timed on what they do (loading ship etc) so a light right foot is not something they do.

Computer does not know what the WLTP range is quoted at (well some Chinese do & stay at that figure for each 100% charge, now that is naughty). It only knows that the previous driving has given x miles/kWh & uses that to show it's predicted range. Or it will work from a base line programmed in. Which will not be WLTP figure.

So if you have a 100kW battery & in that 2 miles they only got 2 miles/kWh then it would read 200 miles. If they got 4 then it would read 400 miles.

TBH, shown range is not a worry given the +60K charge points, compared to less than 8K petrol stations.

Aylesbury_Duck

born_again said:

rndb2023 said:

'Figures for battery electric vehicles were obtained after the battery had been fully charged'
I think this is the point though, when picked up, with no prior driving history (other than couple of delivery miles) so therefore no real memory of driving style etc I don't feel it is unrealistic to expect, at that point, it to show a range within the quoted figures of 320-340 miles. As it happens, my vehicle is the exact spec of the vehicle 'in the adverts'. 

Born_Again - I don't think I have answered my own question. The point being, one expects not to get the quoted mpg, or ml/kw but from brand new you expect it show that the range when fully charged is within the quoted value. it is not.

While it only has a couple of miles on. The car is not shipped to Uk with a fully charged battery & is driven by drivers who are timed on what they do (loading ship etc) so a light right foot is not something they do.

Computer does not know what the WLTP range is quoted at (well some Chinese do & stay at that figure for each 100% charge, now that is naughty). It only knows that the previous driving has given x miles/kWh & uses that to show it's predicted range. Or it will work from a base line programmed in. Which will not be WLTP figure.

So if you have a 100kW battery & in that 2 miles they only got 2 miles/kWh then it would read 200 miles. If they got 4 then it would read 400 miles.

TBH, shown range is not a worry given the +60K charge points, compared to less than 8K petrol stations.

I've seen this comparison before.  It's a little sneaky, because the first counts charging points, the second counts refuelling stations.  I think the number of charging locations is about half of the number of charging points (so a mean of about two points per location), and if there is a mean of four pumps per fuel station, the numbers of charging/refuelling points across the UK are broadly equal.  I assume that once you factor in the charging time versus filling time, plus the fact that EV owners can charge at home or work, that probably provides the required mix of provision for the ratio of ICEs to EVs?

I'm all for the move from ICE to EV, by the way.  There are challenges of course, but it's the right way to go.

DullGreyGuy

Aylesbury_Duck said:

born_again said:

rndb2023 said:

'Figures for battery electric vehicles were obtained after the battery had been fully charged'
I think this is the point though, when picked up, with no prior driving history (other than couple of delivery miles) so therefore no real memory of driving style etc I don't feel it is unrealistic to expect, at that point, it to show a range within the quoted figures of 320-340 miles. As it happens, my vehicle is the exact spec of the vehicle 'in the adverts'. 

Born_Again - I don't think I have answered my own question. The point being, one expects not to get the quoted mpg, or ml/kw but from brand new you expect it show that the range when fully charged is within the quoted value. it is not.

While it only has a couple of miles on. The car is not shipped to Uk with a fully charged battery & is driven by drivers who are timed on what they do (loading ship etc) so a light right foot is not something they do.

Computer does not know what the WLTP range is quoted at (well some Chinese do & stay at that figure for each 100% charge, now that is naughty). It only knows that the previous driving has given x miles/kWh & uses that to show it's predicted range. Or it will work from a base line programmed in. Which will not be WLTP figure.

So if you have a 100kW battery & in that 2 miles they only got 2 miles/kWh then it would read 200 miles. If they got 4 then it would read 400 miles.

TBH, shown range is not a worry given the +60K charge points, compared to less than 8K petrol stations.

I've seen this comparison before.  It's a little sneaky, because the first counts charging points, the second counts refuelling stations.  I think the number of charging locations is about half of the number of charging points (so a mean of about two points per location), and if there is a mean of four pumps per fuel station, the numbers of charging/refuelling points across the UK are broadly equal.  I assume that once you factor in the charging time versus filling time, plus the fact that EV owners can charge at home or work, that probably provides the required mix of provision for the ratio of ICEs to EVs?

I'm all for the move from ICE to EV, by the way.  There are challenges of course, but it's the right way to go.

Charging "location" is presumably also more difficult to define, our street has had a slow charger attached to 6 lampposts - is that 1 "location" or 6 because they are circa 50m apart? The spaces near them also aren't reserved for EVs so can be only a couple are available for car charging and at a very slow pace. 

Would be surprised if the average is 4 pumps. Dont recall any stations with less than 4 but know several with more than 4. 

Working out the right blend will be exceptionally difficult given you need to also consider speed of charging, if its exclusive use of electric cars or if ICE can legitimately block their use etc. Blend may also change by area, where we are its 95% flats and very few of the rare houses have driveways etc. As such more public charging is required -v- the suburbs where most EV owners have their own driveway and charging infrastructure.

born_again

Aylesbury_Duck said:

born_again said:

rndb2023 said:

'Figures for battery electric vehicles were obtained after the battery had been fully charged'
I think this is the point though, when picked up, with no prior driving history (other than couple of delivery miles) so therefore no real memory of driving style etc I don't feel it is unrealistic to expect, at that point, it to show a range within the quoted figures of 320-340 miles. As it happens, my vehicle is the exact spec of the vehicle 'in the adverts'. 

Born_Again - I don't think I have answered my own question. The point being, one expects not to get the quoted mpg, or ml/kw but from brand new you expect it show that the range when fully charged is within the quoted value. it is not.

While it only has a couple of miles on. The car is not shipped to Uk with a fully charged battery & is driven by drivers who are timed on what they do (loading ship etc) so a light right foot is not something they do.

Computer does not know what the WLTP range is quoted at (well some Chinese do & stay at that figure for each 100% charge, now that is naughty). It only knows that the previous driving has given x miles/kWh & uses that to show it's predicted range. Or it will work from a base line programmed in. Which will not be WLTP figure.

So if you have a 100kW battery & in that 2 miles they only got 2 miles/kWh then it would read 200 miles. If they got 4 then it would read 400 miles.

TBH, shown range is not a worry given the +60K charge points, compared to less than 8K petrol stations.

I've seen this comparison before.  It's a little sneaky, because the first counts charging points, the second counts refuelling stations.  I think the number of charging locations is about half of the number of charging points (so a mean of about two points per location), and if there is a mean of four pumps per fuel station, the numbers of charging/refuelling points across the UK are broadly equal.  I assume that once you factor in the charging time versus filling time, plus the fact that EV owners can charge at home or work, that probably provides the required mix of provision for the ratio of ICEs to EVs?

I'm all for the move from ICE to EV, by the way.  There are challenges of course, but it's the right way to go.

At the end of June 2024, there were 64,775 electric vehicle charging points across the UK, across 33,829 charging locations.
With something like a average of 1K new chargers a month this year.

https://www.zap-map.com/ev-stats/how-many-charging-points#:~:text=How many public charging points,20,367 installed since June 2023.

The biggest issue the charge point operators face is only 30% usage & 70% time not being used. Especially given the new regs & the expected 99%+ time on them.
I can see a few of the operators folding due to lack of use & if we are lucky taken over by the bigger groups.

Undervalued

Presumably the range of an electric vehicle must depend to some extent on how it is driven, just like a petrol vehicle?

So any estimate they make about remaining miles on a charge / tank of fuel must depend on driving style. Even if it "learns" how it is usually driven it can't, presumably, know if a carefully driver or boy racer has taken control!

rndb2023

Having given this some further thought, there is lies one of the issues of manufacturers selling/ adervtising/ marketing of  EVs compared to ICE vehicles and how because of this consumers (like myself) feel mis sold.
An ICE car is never marketing as 'will do this many miles on tank full of fuel'. They only ever put the 3 different mpg figures and then in the small print somewhere you can find out number of litres in tank. Never once have I seen an ICE car sold as 'will do this many miles etc'.
I think nearly all EVs have there maximum range in their marketing material so there needs to be an assumption that you will be able to achieve this and that the car should register that it is achievable on a full charge. In my case, the car never has achieved or shown the maximum quoted range on full charge. So it does not match 'as advertised' 

Undervalued

rndb2023 said:

Having given this some further thought, there is lies one of the issues of manufacturers selling/ adervtising/ marketing of  EVs compared to ICE vehicles and how because of this consumers (like myself) feel mis sold.
An ICE car is never marketing as 'will do this many miles on tank full of fuel'. They only ever put the 3 different mpg figures and then in the small print somewhere you can find out number of litres in tank. Never once have I seen an ICE car sold as 'will do this many miles etc'.
I think nearly all EVs have there maximum range in their marketing material so there needs to be an assumption that you will be able to achieve this and that the car should register that it is achievable on a full charge. In my case, the car never has achieved or shown the maximum quoted range on full charge. So it does not match 'as advertised' 

But how do you know if you have driven it as economically as is reasonably possible?