Unable to carry out visa check so missed flight (in chaos on Friday)

nadsat

Voyager2002 said:

nadsat said:

Voyager2002 said:

Hoenir said:

nadsat said:

TELLIT01 said:

Voyager2002 said:

nadsat said:

Voyager2002 said:

Ryanair T and Cs are written in terms of arrival at the departure gate, so their "get lost" response is technically correct. However, they failed to perform the visa check, something that was an essential part of the service for which you had paid. A chargeback would probably succeed, but then you would be blacklisted by Ryanair.

Be clear whether the visa check should have been performed by Ryanair or by the airport, and the precise reason why it was "hopeless".

It's Ryanair that carries out the check and they are supposed to have a dedicated desk for this but didn't. They did get to a check-in desk eventually but were told to clear off in favour of other flight passengers and nothing could be done nor could they get on the two later flights. They arrived well ahead of the 2 hours Ryanair asks for the visa check. 

So Ryanair failed to provide the service for which they had paid. When you (they) contacted Ryanair, what exactly was the excuse for this?

It may have escaped your notice but there was a massive world wide IT systems problem on Friday.  Anybody who did join a check in queue had to be processed manually.  That delay is beyond the control of the airlines.  Ryanair may or may not be able to hide behind that.  I'm sure there will be details somewhere of what has to be refunded and what doesn't. 

 I would suspect Ryanair's take on it will be that the passenger didn't allow enough time for the visa checks to be carried out, therefore no entitlement.  (I'm just playing Devil's Advocate).  The fact that many IT systems weren't available and Ryanair may not have been able to check anyway may be a counter argument to that.

Ryanair has just sent boilerplate saying because they didn't present at the gate no refund, ignoring the visa/boarding pass issue. 

They were in plenty of time for a visa check as usual. 

I would have thought the customer is in no way to blame for the unavailability of a supplier's systems and they should refund. 

Possibly RyanAir use a ground service agent whose system was impacted. Are you suggesting that they should foot the bill? 

Leaving aside the issue of 'should', people who cannot reach the departure gate in time because of failures by the airport (who are presumably linked by contract with the airline) do not have a right to a refund.

Just to be clear - this is a red herring. As I said, it is the airline that conducts the visa check, and as stated in this link. They have refused a refund for not conducting this check or at least they have not read or considered the complaint. 

https://www.migrate.london/blog/ryanair-visa-checks-what-you-need-to-know 

Agreed. However, actors like credit card companies might be unhelpful because of this, so you need to be very clear that the airline itself failed to provide an essential part of the boarding process. This is therefore different from an airport's failure to provide sufficient security staff, meaning that passengers cannot reach the departure gate in time, a situation in which no refund is due.

Thanks. 

This is the Ryanair page - they make it clear:

"All non-EU/EEA citizens must have their travel documents checked and stamped at the Ryanair Visa/Document check desk before going through airport security."

My son's wife is Japanese so they have to do this every time they travel internationally on any airline. 

https://help.ryanair.com/hc/en-gb/articles/12890473958161-I-am-a-non-EU-EEA-citizen-and-need-to-complete-a-visa-check-How-do-I-do-this

For those wondering when this came in it was the coalition in 2015:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/exit-checks-on-passengers-leaving-the-uk/exit-checks-fact-sheet

CKhalvashi

TELLIT01 said:

Voyager2002 said:

nadsat said:

Voyager2002 said:

Ryanair T and Cs are written in terms of arrival at the departure gate, so their "get lost" response is technically correct. However, they failed to perform the visa check, something that was an essential part of the service for which you had paid. A chargeback would probably succeed, but then you would be blacklisted by Ryanair.

Be clear whether the visa check should have been performed by Ryanair or by the airport, and the precise reason why it was "hopeless".

It's Ryanair that carries out the check and they are supposed to have a dedicated desk for this but didn't. They did get to a check-in desk eventually but were told to clear off in favour of other flight passengers and nothing could be done nor could they get on the two later flights. They arrived well ahead of the 2 hours Ryanair asks for the visa check. 

So Ryanair failed to provide the service for which they had paid. When you (they) contacted Ryanair, what exactly was the excuse for this?

It may have escaped your notice but there was a massive world wide IT systems problem on Friday.  Anybody who did join a check in queue had to be processed manually.  That delay is beyond the control of the airlines.  Ryanair may or may not be able to hide behind that.  I'm sure there will be details somewhere of what has to be refunded and what doesn't. 

 I would suspect Ryanair's take on it will be that the passenger didn't allow enough time for the visa checks to be carried out, therefore no entitlement.  (I'm just playing Devil's Advocate).  The fact that many IT systems weren't available and Ryanair may not have been able to check anyway may be a counter argument to that.

That would be the handling company though, not Ryanair. Ryanair don't self-handle, this is outsourced.

I'd argue that a global system outage would likely be extraordinary circumstance in any event. It's 5am here, but I'll be happy to confirm later today exactly which part of legislation would be applicable (if any).

I'd also argue that there's a possibility that not enough time was left. I believe the cutoff is strictly 40 minutes with Ryanair, with latest arrival at the gate of 30 minutes before, however I will confirm this later also. 10 minutes is fine at some airports, but definitely not at an airport like Stansted (where I always seem to go from the 50s for some reason, anyone who knows the airport will know what I mean here).

Voyager2002

CKhalvashi said:

TELLIT01 said:

Voyager2002 said:

nadsat said:

Voyager2002 said:

Ryanair T and Cs are written in terms of arrival at the departure gate, so their "get lost" response is technically correct. However, they failed to perform the visa check, something that was an essential part of the service for which you had paid. A chargeback would probably succeed, but then you would be blacklisted by Ryanair.

Be clear whether the visa check should have been performed by Ryanair or by the airport, and the precise reason why it was "hopeless".

It's Ryanair that carries out the check and they are supposed to have a dedicated desk for this but didn't. They did get to a check-in desk eventually but were told to clear off in favour of other flight passengers and nothing could be done nor could they get on the two later flights. They arrived well ahead of the 2 hours Ryanair asks for the visa check. 

So Ryanair failed to provide the service for which they had paid. When you (they) contacted Ryanair, what exactly was the excuse for this?

It may have escaped your notice but there was a massive world wide IT systems problem on Friday.  Anybody who did join a check in queue had to be processed manually.  That delay is beyond the control of the airlines.  Ryanair may or may not be able to hide behind that.  I'm sure there will be details somewhere of what has to be refunded and what doesn't. 

 I would suspect Ryanair's take on it will be that the passenger didn't allow enough time for the visa checks to be carried out, therefore no entitlement.  (I'm just playing Devil's Advocate).  The fact that many IT systems weren't available and Ryanair may not have been able to check anyway may be a counter argument to that.

That would be the handling company though, not Ryanair. Ryanair don't self-handle, this is outsourced.

I'd argue that a global system outage would likely be extraordinary circumstance in any event. It's 5am here, but I'll be happy to confirm later today exactly which part of legislation would be applicable (if any).

I'd also argue that there's a possibility that not enough time was left. I believe the cutoff is strictly 40 minutes with Ryanair, with latest arrival at the gate of 30 minutes before, however I will confirm this later also. 10 minutes is fine at some airports, but definitely not at an airport like Stansted (where I always seem to go from the 50s for some reason, anyone who knows the airport will know what I mean here).

The OP was very clear that it is Ryanair themselves who carry out the visa check.

We don't know about the timings.

bagand96

Handling agents contracted by the airline, and the functions they undertake would be treated the same as airline staff and functions for the purposes of EC261.

This situation here is that a passenger arrived for their flight in good time and as instructed by the airline for a document check.  Due to the IT outage that document check was unable to take place, in spite of the fact the pax presented to airline staff (or third party handling agent staff acting on behalf of the airline).  Without the document check the pax couldn't board the flight.

I can almost see an argument for denied boarding. That said, clearly that the IT outages are extraordinary circumstances which get the airlines off the hook for most compensation claims.  However given the passenger was unable to board through not fault of their own, I'd say a refund is due.

For the airline to dismiss it as no-show is disingenuous.  But getting that explained to someone at Ryanair and making them act on it is not going to be easy....

stoneman

I’m a bit confused. Every checkin desk at STN can do visa check, they don’t have a dedicated desk there. 

And as of the 12th of this month you are advised to validate your passport on the App, which is what I did last week. Works a treat and now issues you with a boarding card, what a godsend

stoneman

bagand96 said:

Handling agents contracted by the airline, and the functions they undertake would be treated the same as airline staff and functions for the purposes of EC261.

This situation here is that a passenger arrived for their flight in good time and as instructed by the airline for a document check.  Due to the IT outage that document check was unable to take place, in spite of the fact the pax presented to airline staff (or third party handling agent staff acting on behalf of the airline).  Without the document check the pax couldn't board the flight.

I can almost see an argument for denied boarding. That said, clearly that the IT outages are extraordinary circumstances which get the airlines off the hook for most compensation claims.  However given the passenger was unable to board through not fault of their own, I'd say a refund is due.

For the airline to dismiss it as no-show is disingenuous.  But getting that explained to someone at Ryanair and making them act on it is not going to be easy....

There is no IT needed for the document check. They look at your passport and issue you with a boarding card. I’ve had to do it lots and lots

CKhalvashi

stoneman said:

bagand96 said:

Handling agents contracted by the airline, and the functions they undertake would be treated the same as airline staff and functions for the purposes of EC261.

This situation here is that a passenger arrived for their flight in good time and as instructed by the airline for a document check.  Due to the IT outage that document check was unable to take place, in spite of the fact the pax presented to airline staff (or third party handling agent staff acting on behalf of the airline).  Without the document check the pax couldn't board the flight.

I can almost see an argument for denied boarding. That said, clearly that the IT outages are extraordinary circumstances which get the airlines off the hook for most compensation claims.  However given the passenger was unable to board through not fault of their own, I'd say a refund is due.

For the airline to dismiss it as no-show is disingenuous.  But getting that explained to someone at Ryanair and making them act on it is not going to be easy....

There is no IT needed for the document check. They look at your passport and issue you with a boarding card. I’ve had to do it lots and lots

There is, it's a visa check as well as a document check, so at a minimum will need to be run through TIMATIC.

sheramber

stoneman said:

I’m a bit confused. Every checkin desk at STN can do visa check, they don’t have a dedicated desk there. 

And as of the 12th of this month you are advised to validate your passport on the App, which is what I did last week. Works a treat and now issues you with a boarding card, what a godsend

Not if you are Japanese

https://help.ryanair.com/hc/en-gb/categories/12488813755537-Check-In-Travel-Documents#:~:text=All non-EU/EEA citizens with a restricted boarding pass,the airport prior to departure.

Do I need a visa to travel?

I am a non-EU/EEA citizen and need to complete a visa check. How do I do this?

All non-EU/EEA citizens must have their travel documents checked and stamped at the Ryanair Visa/Document check desk before going through airport security. Your boarding pass will display the information for routes that require mandatory Visa/Document checks.

Non-EU/EEA citizens must do this to ensure compliance with immigration authority rules. We reserve the right to refuse travel if there is any failure to comply with this requirement.

Citizens of the United States, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand may complete passport verification during the check-in process via our app instead of at the visa check desk. To use this service, ensure your passport is:

• Valid for at least 6 months beyond your intended stay for flights from Schengen to Non-Schengen regions.
• Valid for at least 3 months beyond your intended stay for flights within Schengen regions.

However, if the passport verification process is not available, you must proceed to the visa check desk at the airport.

If you have been denied boarding and require clarification, please return to the visa check desk at the airport. The ticket desk agent will contact the Ryanair Immigration Department for further assistance.

nadsat

Yes, as I said this is a policy introduced by the coalition government in 2015. It means a lot of people on visas can't get boarding passes before going to the airport - they can only be issued by the airline after a document check in person at the airport. 

My son has lodged a complaint with on the Aviation Dispute Resolution site, and Amex has first advised he try reclaiming all costs with the travel insurer, AXA. Failing that he is cross enough to ask Amex for a chargeback against Ryanair for the flights but will have no recourse on the hotel and booked excursions.   

CKhalvashi

It's pretty reasonable for a check to ensure the passenger intends to exit or otherwise has permission to enter for a reasonably time unlimited purpose.

I've had to show proof of onward flight several times on boarding in the past, with my condition of stay being 30 days visa free per visit as long as arriving and departing at a specific airport.

The answer was always 'to London' (normally when boarding at Vilnius on a one way Vilnius-London with the trip length between the two), 'to Warsaw' (on a LOT ticket) or 'back here' (when stopping in either Vilnius or Kyiv on the way back), so fairly standard.

It stops those with no right to enter from boarding and protects the airline from fines, so works all around.

In any event, the requirement is a Ryanair one in many cases instead of being an international one, and is one of the few areas where Ryanair are stricter than laws require. The absurdity of OH having to be checked to go to a country she holds a passport for proves this.