Has your domestic IOT appliance stopped working? Who pays?

HillStreetBlues

I don't see it as being "free" it's all inbuilt in the cost of the machine. A person buys a washing machine that can be controlled by wifi then that should last the same as any physical buttons.

sabeiura

Lots of good questions and counter perspectives. I don't need to disclose the manufacturer because this discussion is not about me flaming a particular brand - I think it's a mistake many manufacturers could make / may have made, but it is still their mistake (I also design electronic products for  living so I have some idea of the concerns). 

I bought the washine machine through Amazon, with the manufacturer name part of the vendor name, so I am pretty sure the manufacturer won't want to push this back onto Amazon. I don't expect any warranty for the app, but when the product specification includes the following, I think I have them banged to rights. IMHO

"A smarter way to do laundry Laundry day is a breeze thanks to the WiFi-enabled Washing Machine. Connect it to your phone via the app to start the wash, download new cycles or run smart diagnostics. Not sure which program to use? With Snap&Wash, you can snap a picture of your pile of clothes and the app will choose the right one for you..."

My challenge with the manufacturer will take its own course and I am trying to be sanguine about it, although ultimately I only used the washing machine via the app, so it is a loss. I'm almost 60 so I'd don't think that anyone should be counted out on age grounds(!). I swim a lot and want customise the wash to minimise damage to trunks (for instance) - but I ultimately have set wash profiles that I use according to the conditions. I think that if the product no longer fulfils the marketing specification while it is still within its expected lifetime there should be compensation due. eg If a typical washing machine lasts 5 years, then that is a reasonable horizon for it to support its advertised spec. In this case the machine is 9 months old so pro rata I figure I'm owed 87% of the purchase price.

Product legislation does not change at the drop of a hat and in general manufacturers have fair warning from regulatory bodies before being bound by changes, so I think the manufacturer should have been in the position to advertise accurately. DullGreyGuy is probably on the money and I don't think that this legislation change has anything like the public communication it should have had.

user1977

sabeiura said:

If a typical washing machine lasts 5 years, then that is a reasonable horizon for it to support its advertised spec. In this case the machine is 9 months old so pro rata I figure I'm owed 87% of the purchase price.

If it doesn't function at all, that argument may hold water. But I'm guessing it generally still works (and you haven't handed the machine back....).

HillStreetBlues

sabeiura said:

Product legislation does not change at the drop of a hat and in general manufacturers have fair warning from regulatory bodies before being bound by changes, so I think the manufacturer should have been in the position to advertise accurately. DullGreyGuy is probably on the money and I don't think that this legislation change has anything like the public communication it should have had.

But the legislation applies to products sold from 29th April 2024, it wasn't made retrospectively, there is no legal reason why a machine bought before that date can't maintain the features it was supplied with.

powerful_Rogue

Presuming it's a Candy.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Candy-RO16104DWMCE-1600rpm-Washing-Machine/dp/B08FBH4DSC

RefluentBeans

HillStreetBlues said:

I don't see it as being "free" it's all inbuilt in the cost of the machine. A person buys a washing machine that can be controlled by wifi then that should last the same as any physical buttons.

You may not consider it ‘free’ but there is a recurring cost to maintain these services. I agree that they should provide services, but that time is debatable on how long it should last. Software requires maintenance not just to keep it functional but to keep it secure. We’ve seen creative use of IOT connected devices that were poorly maintained that could compromise network security. 

The ‘easy’ answer is 6 years as that is the timeframe where the limitations kick in. 

The other issue is if there are two separate products being provided. A still functional washing machine and a subscription to access add on features of the product. It could be argued (and I’m sure the retailer will argue this) that the product is functional and thus not faulty, so doesn’t fall under CRA. And that this added functionalities are a separate contract. 

Petriix

Sadly you take a chance whenever you buy something like this. Technology changes rapidly and it's impossible to tell what services will endure and for how long.

I've had things go both ways: my solar panels were installed with a Geo Solo II monitor which had an Internet bridge to provide online data which I could download. After a couple of years they switched off the service so I had to find other (more convoluted) ways to extract the data. On the other hand, my Zappi EV charging point didn't originally have internet connectivity but they later added it for free. I expect my gen 1 device will eventually lose support. 

HillStreetBlues

RefluentBeans said:

You may not consider it ‘free’ but there is a recurring cost to maintain these services. I agree that they should provide services, but that time is debatable on how long it should last. Software requires maintenance not just to keep it functional but to keep it secure. We’ve seen creative use of IOT connected devices that were poorly maintained that could compromise network security. 

The ‘easy’ answer is 6 years as that is the timeframe where the limitations kick in. 

I agree with there is recurring costs, as the cost isn't front loaded as the actual washing machine will be. It's similar to a warranty a manufacture supplies.
A warranty will be covered in the cost of machine, but once machine is sold the warranty is an on-going cost .

RefluentBeans said:

The other issue is if there are two separate products being provided. A still functional washing machine and a subscription to access add on features of the product. It could be argued (and I’m sure the retailer will argue this) that the product is functional and thus not faulty, so doesn’t fall under CRA. And that this added functionalities are a separate contract. 

I expect the retailer will argue that, but if I have bought a washing machine that said I could control it via wifi and and had certain  cycles I could not long use after 9 months I would be putting in a claim.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

It would be interesting to know whether such equipment is classed as a mixed contract with the supply of both goods and digital content.

Were it to be it would be required to look at the remedies of each element separately.

Digital content appears to follow services in terms of a final remedy being a price reduction.

I'm sure there are terms and you'd have to look towards the CMA guidance with regards to varying the contract, terms must be narrow and one example they give of possibly being acceptable is changes to legislation but that does in turn give rise to the question of whether the digital content could still be provided but it's been decided it's too much bother or expensive to address and how that would be factored in to the consumer's expectation a product should perform as expected at the time of purchase. 

DullGreyGuy

HillStreetBlues said:

sabeiura said:

Product legislation does not change at the drop of a hat and in general manufacturers have fair warning from regulatory bodies before being bound by changes, so I think the manufacturer should have been in the position to advertise accurately. DullGreyGuy is probably on the money and I don't think that this legislation change has anything like the public communication it should have had.

But the legislation applies to products sold from 29th April 2024, it wasn't made retrospectively, there is no legal reason why a machine bought before that date can't maintain the features it was supplied with.

Because IoT requires servers to operate, those servers cost money to run and require engineers to maintain. Any company worth its salt will have multiple environments running which all compound costs. 

Costs can be worth running when services are brining in X thousand new customers every year but if you discover that these features are not actually the reason why the vast majority are buying and the costs are going to spike due to increased security requirements so you discontinue the features. That leaves you with Y customers that are paying you no more money but you're spending £100,000+ a year to have, maintain and security patch an environment for. How sustainable do you think it is to keep paying that as Y decreases month on month as people replace machines with either other brands or other models of yours that are no longer smart?

The model of perpetual free service works only on the fallacy of an ever increasing customer base funding those services. I always prefer the security of a paid for service which has much less chance of being pulled when it becomes uneconomical to support... it gives me the choice to pay fee increases or cancel rather than it being taken away from me.