Landlord expectations after 16 years

[Deleted User]

You have mostly attracted advice to be generous about the broken sink because people thought you are the landlord. Strictly speaking thats not fair wear and tear. The landlord doesn't have to be generous.

It sounds like the landlord was not on top of all their obligations over the years but the time to complain would gave been as and when.

Jami74

Thanks OP for asking this question, and for all the lenient landlords. I'm about to move out after nearly two decades and have been wondering how far to go with cleaning and decorating. 

The kitchen and bathroom were old when we moved in (kitchen cupboard doors were already a bit wonky and numbers rubbed off on oven/hob knobs) but it was newly carpeted and painted when we moved in. We regularly reported things in the beginning to be told that the landlord didn't want to spend any money, so mostly fixed things ourselves as best we could. 

If the landlord is expecting to recarpet and repaint then it seems a waste to get the carpets professionally cleaned and to return to redecorate, but the estate agents have always been unfriendly and accusatory so expecting them to claim as much as they can from the deposit.

Grumpy_chap

[Deleted User] said:

You have mostly attracted advice to be generous about the broken sink because people thought you are the landlord. Strictly speaking thats not fair wear and tear. The landlord doesn't have to be generous.

You are correct that the LL does not have to be generous.


However, the LL also cannot claim the full costs of the damages that are to be repaired. 

• Damaged bathroom door / lock
• Damaged / cracked bathroom hand basin
• Damaged gas hob knobs

The LL is not entitled to betterment so, at most, the claim would be limited to the replacement cost reduced by the proportion of life expectancy for the items.  It may well become such a nominal value that claiming is rather moot.

We did have a damaged bath in our BTL.  The cost to replace was around £800.  We did not discover this until after the check-out inventory but, even if we had, claiming a deduction from the old T would have been difficult.  We never really established what was actually wrong - to do so would take time and money - we simply changed everything for new so the job was done.

We also had one T who, somehow, "lost" the kitchen door.  We never replaced the door and simply made it a better version of open access.  The kitchen needed doing through in any case, so the few pence extra to adjust the door trim was neither here nor there.

Jami74 said:

Thanks OP for asking this question, and for all the lenient landlords. I'm about to move out after nearly two decades and have been wondering how far to go with cleaning and decorating. 

The kitchen and bathroom were old when we moved in (kitchen cupboard doors were already a bit wonky and numbers rubbed off on oven/hob knobs) but it was newly carpeted and painted when we moved in. We regularly reported things in the beginning to be told that the landlord didn't want to spend any money, so mostly fixed things ourselves as best we could. 

If the landlord is expecting to recarpet and repaint then it seems a waste to get the carpets professionally cleaned and to return to redecorate, but the estate agents have always been unfriendly and accusatory so expecting them to claim as much as they can from the deposit.

Someone else asked really exactly this recently:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6535919/compensating-landlord-at-end-of-tenancy/p1

In my opinion, as a LL, I would be fully refurbishing this property after 20 years, modern kitchen and bathroom, new carpets, fully decorate.  The effort will attract a tenant more quickly and allow a higher rental income so well worth it.  In that scenario, I would not really fuss how the property was left - just clear of stuff.  After 20 years, I'd return the full deposit regardless.  So much value in all that time with no void periods.

[Deleted User]

Grumpy_chap said:

[Deleted User] said:

You have mostly attracted advice to be generous about the broken sink because people thought you are the landlord. Strictly speaking thats not fair wear and tear. The landlord doesn't have to be generous.

You are correct that the LL does not have to be generous.


However, the LL also cannot claim the full costs of the damages that are to be repaired. 

• Damaged bathroom door / lock
• Damaged / cracked bathroom hand basin
• Damaged gas hob knobs

The LL is not entitled to betterment so, at most, the claim would be limited to the replacement cost reduced by the proportion of life expectancy for the items.  It may well become such a nominal value that claiming is rather moot.

We did have a damaged bath in our BTL.  The cost to replace was around £800.  We did not discover this until after the check-out inventory but, even if we had, claiming a deduction from the old T would have been difficult.  We never really established what was actually wrong - to do so would take time and money - we simply changed everything for new so the job was done.

We also had one T who, somehow, "lost" the kitchen door.  We never replaced the door and simply made it a better version of open access.  The kitchen needed doing through in any case, so the few pence extra to adjust the door trim was neither here nor there.

Jami74 said:

Thanks OP for asking this question, and for all the lenient landlords. I'm about to move out after nearly two decades and have been wondering how far to go with cleaning and decorating. 

The kitchen and bathroom were old when we moved in (kitchen cupboard doors were already a bit wonky and numbers rubbed off on oven/hob knobs) but it was newly carpeted and painted when we moved in. We regularly reported things in the beginning to be told that the landlord didn't want to spend any money, so mostly fixed things ourselves as best we could. 

If the landlord is expecting to recarpet and repaint then it seems a waste to get the carpets professionally cleaned and to return to redecorate, but the estate agents have always been unfriendly and accusatory so expecting them to claim as much as they can from the deposit.

Someone else asked really exactly this recently:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6535919/compensating-landlord-at-end-of-tenancy/p1

In my opinion, as a LL, I would be fully refurbishing this property after 20 years, modern kitchen and bathroom, new carpets, fully decorate.  The effort will attract a tenant more quickly and allow a higher rental income so well worth it.  In that scenario, I would not really fuss how the property was left - just clear of stuff.  After 20 years, I'd return the full deposit regardless.  So much value in all that time with no void periods.

What would be the life expectancy of a sink?

Sure, I can understand the expectation to extensively redecorate, re carpet etc. No betterment as you say.

I can only say that when I refurbished my rental property, I now feel glad that I didn't have to replace every sink bath door and window (had they been abused and broken) at my cost!

BarelySentientAI

[Deleted User] said:

What would be the life expectancy of a sink?

Could be anything really?

TPS published some guidance https://www.tenancydepositscheme.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/A-Guide-to-product-lifespans.pdf but that doesn't include sinks - although does say some curtains are good for 20 years.

Grumpy_chap

[Deleted User] said:

What would be the life expectancy of a sink?

Yes, I recognise the challenge of that.  
A handwash basin will last "forever", which is a difficult period to pro-rata.

Upthread, I used 20 years, which was really just my take on the need to redo the bathroom any way after that period but without any evidence to back it up.
The following article suggests 10 years to redo a bathroom in a rental property:
https://www.belvoir.co.uk/nottingham-central-estate-agents/articles/how-often-should-a-landlord-replace-a-bathroom-uk/

10 years seems short to me but, perhaps the rental property never benefitted from the very best quality and maybe treated more harshly than a owner-occupied property but that is an assumption and probably not relevant for a property where the tenant stays long term.

I agree that you'd not expect to replace every bath, sink, door, window as part of a regular post-tenancy refurb but, eventually, everything needs replacing.  In the case of the bath I mentioned upthread, we knew it had been installed in 1999.  It was 2019 when we had to replace it.  The cost was £800 for the whole new bath, drains, taps / shower unit plus making good all fitted.  We got on and got the job done as we had a new tenant moving and the expense is better than a void period, plus want the new tenant to be happy on moving in.  If we had less pressure of time, we would probably have investigated the root cause rather than just replace everything but the T was moving in on Saturday and Santa was due to visit the same week so "just do it" was the right thing to do.

MeteredOut

Interesting thread, and I wonder if the initial responses would have been different if the OP had actually posted the truth: "I'm a tenant, I've been no problem to the LL for 16 years but have broken a sink, sawn through a door and broken the cooker knobs, do I have to get them fixed?" 

glennevis

Tracet74 said:

Yes - always paid on time and no deductions.  

The damage is accidental - broken basin in the bathroom as something fell out of the cupboard above and broke it.  The door has to be sawn open as the lock jammed in a closed position.  Gas hob knobs have seized as it was cleaned too vigorously (water and electrics don't mix!)

The door (happened to me once):
Can you get an angle grinder in the gap and cut through the tang to minimise damage to the door carcass? Then you would only have to replace the lock fittings.

Tracet74

MeteredOut said:

Interesting thread, and I wonder if the initial responses would have been different if the OP had actually posted the truth: "I'm a tenant, I've been no problem to the LL for 16 years but have broken a sink, sawn through a door and broken the cooker knobs, do I have to get them fixed?" 

That was intentional as I wanted the opinion of landlords, both good and bad. There are various historic threads by tenants.

MeteredOut

Tracet74 said:

MeteredOut said:

Interesting thread, and I wonder if the initial responses would have been different if the OP had actually posted the truth: "I'm a tenant, I've been no problem to the LL for 16 years but have broken a sink, sawn through a door and broken the cooker knobs, do I have to get them fixed?" 

That was intentional as I wanted the opinion of landlords, both good and bad. There are various historic threads by tenants.

Yes, smart tactic, but also means no-one will ever trust you on this board ever again