NHS and Private Health Care

liveletlive

I have been in an NHS hospital for nearly seven months with my beautiful five-year-old daughter, who is undergoing treatment for AML leukaemia.

During our extended stay, we witnessed numerous errors, some of which could have been fatal. The NHS is under immense pressure, and its management requires urgent review. There are three types of nurses: the heroes whom you would trust with your child any day, the plodders who do their best but don't go above and beyond, and the jaded ones who could pose a danger due to their lack of motivation.

The issue isn't solely about salaries, as these nurses earn more than chartered accountants and qualified solicitors, which is justified. The real problem lies in the NHS management and its pervasive culture of secrecy.

Despite the general reluctance to criticise the NHS, this toxic positivity prevents necessary actions from being taken. Although we had comprehensive healthcare coverage for our daughter with one of the top companies they didn'te2 have the facilities to treat her.

The takeaway is clear: we need to fix the NHS at all costs. I want my tax money prioritised for the NHS rather than being allocated elsewhere.

While I cannot delve into more details here, trust me when I say the situation is alarming. The consultants and some exceptional nurses are commendable, but 75% of the system is broken.

LightFlare

It’s no surprise to anyone within the NHS that the problems stem from management - be it ineffectiveness or just too many of them.

How to remedy that - I honestly don’t know. Maybe it should be mandated that NHS trusts are only allowed to employ 1 manager per x front line posts.

Its used to be that front line staff far outnumbered all other groups - nowadays we are an endangered species.

Andy_L

LightFlare said:

It’s no surprise to anyone within the NHS that the problems stem from management - be it ineffectiveness or just too many of them.

How to remedy that - I honestly don’t know. Maybe it should be mandated that NHS trusts are only allowed to employ 1 manager per x front line posts.

Its used to be that front line staff far outnumbered all other groups - nowadays we are an endangered species.

"The number of people who are employed specifically as managers is much lower. As counted up by the Health and Social Care Information Centre, it is only around 51,000 people out of 1.17 million. This includes doctors and nurses who do full-time management roles. At a total 4% of the workforce, it compares to 10% in the UK economy as a whole."

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/fact-or-fiction-the-nhs-has-too-many-managers

Okell

liveletlive said:

... The issue isn't solely about salaries, as these nurses earn more than chartered accountants and qualified solicitors ...

As a former NHS workforce planning and information manager I'd have to say I find that general comment a bit dubious.

Do you have any evidence to support it?

liveletlive

@Okell

Do you have any evidence to support it?

Just google salaries and bands. 100% salaries can't be the issue, but please understand I am not saying they shouldn't stay in line with inflation.

Okell

liveletlive said:

@Okell

Do you have any evidence to support it?

Just google salaries and bands. 100% salaries can't be the issue, but please understand I am not saying they shouldn't stay in line with inflation.

The vast majority of NHS registered nurses are going to fall into bands 5 and 6 where the current rates start at £30229 and max out at £46100.

Your daughter may have been treated by clinical nurse specialists (or whatever they are called now) at band 7 or possibly band 8a which max out at £53789 and £61552 respectively.

Yes these are relatively large amounts compared to the median annual salary in the UK, but it means that the most experienced, most qualified and most expert of these nurses are limited to a maximum annual salary of £61552.

I'm sure there are some qualified solicitors and qualified accountants (and certainly barristers) who earn less than that, but if you were to compare like with like (eg newly qualified -v- newly qualified; level of specialist training; years of experience etc) I'd be truly astonished if the phrase "these nurses earn more than chartered accountants and qualified solicitors" was accurate.

DullGreyGuy

@Okell does that include shift allowances, realistic overtime, London weighting etc or would all of those be on top?

I would also wonder if the OP is also considering agency/bank staff where firstly there is a big difference between what the agency gets -v- the person themselves and naturally not being an employee makes their money look higher as there is no sick pay, holiday pay, employers NI, pension etc. 

Solicitors salaries will vary even more than nurses as you'll have the non-partner solicitor in a tiny family firm in a small town who'll probably be notably be below the Band 7 and potentially the 6 even with years of experience. On the flip side you have Linklater's who currently pay just qualified lawyers £125,000 and equity partners are on £2m. The last non-equity partner I employed from another magic circle law firm was billing us £1,250/hr + VAT


I dont think there is any reluctance to speak badly of the NHS itself, most people do. Speaking badly of those that work in the NHS is a different matter but like any organisations there are the "3 types of" in all roles at most levels. 

It does seem the OP got distracted from their original purpose given the title but no reference to private medical in the body. 

Okell

Even with enhancements, overtime and London weighting the generalised claim that nurses get paid more than chartered accountants and solicitors is ludicrous.

It's a daft assertion as it simply distracts from what might be a valid claim by the OP.

(And I do not disagree with the OP that there are some very good nurses, some very average nurses and some that are barely competent.  Not all clinicians - nurses and others - in the NHS are "angels" however you measure it)

PHK

It has been the case for years. Ten years ago I was in hospital, I witnessed some appalling care by nurses and other staff.  I don’t know whether it’s because they felt underpaid or overworked or jaded but it was dreadful. 

Visiting a friend in hospital last year , I’ve seen the same behaviours still existing. 

You can’t have a conversation about it because automatically go into a mode where they defend “hard working poor nurses” when in fact it’s about management that: a) allow those conditions to exist and b) some staff aren’t very good at their job and have poor attitude. 

(Happy to explain more about my experience but be warned some of it is gross)

Albermarle

PHK said:

It has been the case for years. Ten years ago I was in hospital, I witnessed some appalling care by nurses and other staff.  I don’t know whether it’s because they felt underpaid or overworked or jaded but it was dreadful. 

Visiting a friend in hospital last year , I’ve seen the same behaviours still existing. 

You can’t have a conversation about it because automatically go into a mode where they defend “hard working poor nurses” when in fact it’s about management that: a) allow those conditions to exist and b) some staff aren’t very good at their job and have poor attitude. 

(Happy to explain more about my experience but be warned some of it is gross)

Currently experiencing an NHS hospital with a close family member. So far unable to find any fault/poor service of any significance at all, from nurses or medical staff. 
In fact I am surprised how well staffed and organised they are. Definitely not broken.
I suspect like all organisations, some hospitals/trusts are better run than others.

liveletlive

Okell

I'm sure there are some qualified solicitors and qualified accountants (and certainly barristers) who earn less than that, but if you were to compare like with like (eg newly qualified -v- newly qualified; level of specialist training; years of experience etc) I'd be truly astonished if the phrase "these nurses earn more than chartered accountants and qualified solicitors" was accurate.

@Okell

There are too many variables to make these comparisons here, such as location and skill set. But believe me look up salaries that top solicitors firms are paying most their associates working 8 til 8 same with top accountancy firms.

I saw nurses that were worth their weight in gold and others who really were disaster waiting to happen. Unfortunately there were more of the latter. Not just nurses, dieticians left my daughter without any nutrition for six days during conditioning chemotherapy we asked every day, we weren't the only parents in the ward in the same situation. 

The sad is that the nurses that I say are a disaster waiting to happen are propping up the NHS, god knows how you solve that problem quickly. Then you have the student nurses doing a better job than som qualified nurses but not getting a penny and paying their tuition fees for the privilege.

We need the throw everything at the NHS Ito fix it instead of spending billions on bombs and weapons.