NHS and Private Health Care

DullGreyGuy

liveletlive said:

Okell

I'm sure there are some qualified solicitors and qualified accountants (and certainly barristers) who earn less than that, but if you were to compare like with like (eg newly qualified -v- newly qualified; level of specialist training; years of experience etc) I'd be truly astonished if the phrase "these nurses earn more than chartered accountants and qualified solicitors" was accurate.

Okell

There are too many variables to make these comparisons here, such as location and skill set. But believe me look up salaries that top solicitors firms are paying most their associates working 8 til 8 same with top accountancy firms.

I saw nurses that were worth their weight in gold and others who really were disaster waiting to happen. Unfortunately there were more of the latter. Not just nurses, dieticians left my daughter without any nutrition for six days during conditioning chemotherapy we asked every day, we weren't the only parents in the ward in the same situation. 

The sad is that the nurses that I say are a disaster waiting to happen are propping up the NHS, god knows how you solve that problem quickly. Then you have the student nurses doing a better job than som qualified nurses but not getting a penny and paying their tuition fees for the privilege.

We need the throw everything at the NHS Ito fix it instead of spending billions on bombs and weapons.

Top solicitor firms are the "Magic Circle", they pay over £120k for a newly qualified solicitor and more for an experienced associate. The "Silver Circle", the next rung down are still over £100k. The UK average is £68k.

Average working hours is just over 10 hours a day for those top firms, just over 9 for the average. Both are better than the US where the top firms are getting almost the 12 hours out of their staff but for over £150k a year for newly qualified. 

The problem is that there are many scales you can measure a nurse on, like any profession. I suspect many would rate the nurses on their softer skills higher but there is an argument that technical skills should be more of a priority. Hell, remember when a mate was in hospital and there was one nurse that was always stroppy, not sure she knew one end of a needle from the other but she was very attractive, wore a dress 2 sizes to small and the buttons at the top kept coming undone... he'd always get his bed baths from her and thought she was great. 

After 3 nurses. 2 registrars and 1 consultant all failed to put a working IV line in for me a scary !!!!!! phlebotomist was called and got it done in one go almost without looking. Didnt say a word to me, had no bedside manner but got the job done efficiently. I'm sure many will have complained about her over the years but she was a star in my books. 

I've no answers on how to fix the NHS. The fact we spend £4,188 per person per year without considering those that have private treatment already sounds a big number and makes my £1,250 private medical insurance look cheap. Defence is 15% the budget of Health and naturally a good slug of that isn't buying bombs but paying salaries. As a nation we are also fairly good at selling war so the money flows are not just out the door. I'm not convinced that simply disbanding all aspects of the Defence, putting 175,000+ people out of work, and giving the money less the new benefit claimers to the NHS would fix the problem. 

I'm glad my job is helping insurers instead. 

Murphybear

PHK said:

It has been the case for years. Ten years ago I was in hospital, I witnessed some appalling care by nurses and other staff.  I don’t know whether it’s because they felt underpaid or overworked or jaded but it was dreadful. 

Visiting a friend in hospital last year , I’ve seen the same behaviours still existing. 

You can’t have a conversation about it because automatically go into a mode where they defend “hard working poor nurses” when in fact it’s about management that: a) allow those conditions to exist and b) some staff aren’t very good at their job and have poor attitude. 

(Happy to explain more about my experience but be warned some of it is gross)

I’d be happy to tell you about my hospital/GP experiences.  So good they’ve been sublime.

An example - i had an X-ray last Wednesday and was told it would take a couple of days to get the results.  My GP emailed me on Saturday to tell me it was clear.  The surgery is closed on Saturday 

Murphybear

liveletlive said:

I have been in an NHS hospital for nearly seven months with my beautiful five-year-old daughter, who is undergoing treatment for AML leukaemia.

During our extended stay, we witnessed numerous errors, some of which could have been fatal. The NHS is under immense pressure, and its management requires urgent review. There are three types of nurses: the heroes whom you would trust with your child any day, the plodders who do their best but don't go above and beyond, and the jaded ones who could pose a danger due to their lack of motivation.

The issue isn't solely about salaries, as these nurses earn more than chartered accountants and qualified solicitors, which is justified. The real problem lies in the NHS management and its pervasive culture of secrecy.

Despite the general reluctance to criticise the NHS, this toxic positivity prevents necessary actions from being taken. Although we had comprehensive healthcare coverage for our daughter with one of the top companies they didn'te2 have the facilities to treat her.

The takeaway is clear: we need to fix the NHS at all costs. I want my tax money prioritised for the NHS rather than being allocated elsewhere.

While I cannot delve into more details here, trust me when I say the situation is alarming. The consultants and some exceptional nurses are commendable, but 75% of the system is broken.

I hope your daughter is OK.  We do have some world class leukaemia departments in the U.K.  I used to work in a medical laboratory in the NHS - my speciality was Serology (blood groups) and Haematology.  We learned a lot about leukaemia when studying for our exams 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Some trusts are paying out millions under PFI contracts:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/25/nhs-hospital-trusts-paying-hundreds-of-millions-in-interest-to-private-firms

Similar problem with schools:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-68207051

There was a news article years back pointing out that different trusts were paying vastly different prices for basics, such as loo roll, and there were reports of the NHS paying high prices for things such as paracetamol.

I think a part of the problem is companies see hospitals, schools, councils, etc applying for goods or services and simply up the price. 

Albermarle

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Some trusts are paying out millions under PFI contracts:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/25/nhs-hospital-trusts-paying-hundreds-of-millions-in-interest-to-private-firms

Similar problem with schools:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-68207051

There was a news article years back pointing out that different trusts were paying vastly different prices for basics, such as loo roll, and there were reports of the NHS paying high prices for things such as paracetamol.

I think a part of the problem is companies see hospitals, schools, councils, etc applying for goods or services and simply up the price. 

As said in a previous post our families recent experience was very good.
However I could not help notice quite a lot of waste, and no attempts at all to try and reuse or recycle anything.

Danien

I worked as a nurse at the end of the last Tory run in 96/97. It drove me out of nursing.

I remember feeling utterly frustrated and miserable that I could provide the level of care I wanted. Staffing levels were too low every shift and we reported in the incident book that the ward was unsafe. I was a junior nurse, newly qualified, often in charge of a 32 bed ward with only agency or bank staff, this was unsafe in itself. Running around like a headless chicken, basically firefighting, having to prioritise the most urgent need, which meant patients got left far too long and didn't get the level of care I wanted to provide. Saw some horrific situations as the doctors were under just as much pressure, and trying to advocate for the needs of very sick people was often difficult with stressed overworked doctors. It is worse now than it was then. My salary was £11,500, a terribly low salary at the time.

My standard of care was always the level of care I would want my beloved grandmother to have if she was in hospital.

Vectis

Okell said:

liveletlive said:

... The issue isn't solely about salaries, as these nurses earn more than chartered accountants and qualified solicitors ...

As a former NHS workforce planning and information manager I'd have to say I find that general comment a bit dubious.

Do you have any evidence to support it?

Interestingly, NHS Workforce Planning and Information Managers (your previous role, apparently) earn more than qualified accountants or the average nurse.

Workforce Planning and Information Manager

Salary: Band 8B (£63,530 - £68,223). This is for NHS Scotland.


Compared with:

How much do Qualified Accountant jobs pay in different locations?

Location	Average	Range
Cheltenham	£47,500	£32,500​-​£52,500
Northampton, Northamptonshire	£47,500	£45,000​-​£55,000
Exeter	£45,982	£38,750​-​£49,426
Leeds, West Yorkshire	£42,500	£33,750​-​£57,500

From Indeed:

How much does NHS - Nursing in England pay? The average NHS salary ranges from approximately £23,687 per year for Progressive Care Nurse to £60,031 per year for Pediatric Nurse Practitioner.

Okell

But what is a "qualified accountant"?

The OP specifically said that nurses earn more than "chartered accountants and qualified solicitors".  My bold for emphasis.

The term "qualified accountant" covers many different qualifications, not necessarily ICAEW.

I simply cannot believe that the OP's bold general assertion that "these nurses earn more than chartered accountants and qualified solicitors" is true.

Yes - some nurses may earn more than some accountants and some solicitors, but on average they do not.  And to say otherwise would be a distortion.

Now the claims from nursing unions a couple of years ago that nurses were having to resort to foodbanks to survive because they were so badly paid were clearly dubious, but the claim that they are paid more than chartered accountans and qualified solicitors is equally laughable.

The NHS in Scotland is a mess after years of mis-government and mal-administration.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if they overpay their managers.