FIXTURES WHEN BUYING

horsewithnoname

when I moved I had to fill and make good the holes that removing picture hooks left as I recall, so if the seller does remove stuff that is fixed then is it not still up to them to make good?

housebuyer143

wiseoldbird77 said:

He gave me a long list and claimed he'd paid £20,000 for it! The desk is fixed to an exposed brick wall and the building is listed Grade 1. (It's just a small flat). Holes in the wall wouldn't be that easy to sort out and I'm quite old. Yes I have pointed out to the vendor it's a fixture, but he's just ignoring that. He is actually a solicitor although not in property. I'm offering on just a few light fittings and an illuminated bathroom mirror to try to compromise at the moment. Considering saying I don't want anything if he won't agree. My solicitor suggested I said I don't want any of it. This is alien to me as when I've sold in the past I've included furniture etc.

I mean a bathroom mirror really should be staying. What kind of person tries to charge extra for that...
I would probably tell him the things you expect to remain just because when you viewed it was fair to think they would be there. 
A desk though, I wouldn't call a fixture unless it's built specifically for that room and built in. Just screwed to the wall doesn't make it so.

Emmia

housebuyer143 said:

wiseoldbird77 said:

He gave me a long list and claimed he'd paid £20,000 for it! The desk is fixed to an exposed brick wall and the building is listed Grade 1. (It's just a small flat). Holes in the wall wouldn't be that easy to sort out and I'm quite old. Yes I have pointed out to the vendor it's a fixture, but he's just ignoring that. He is actually a solicitor although not in property. I'm offering on just a few light fittings and an illuminated bathroom mirror to try to compromise at the moment. Considering saying I don't want anything if he won't agree. My solicitor suggested I said I don't want any of it. This is alien to me as when I've sold in the past I've included furniture etc.

I mean a bathroom mirror really should be staying. What kind of person tries to charge extra for that...
I would probably tell him the things you expect to remain just because when you viewed it was fair to think they would be there. 
A desk though, I wouldn't call a fixture unless it's built specifically for that room and built in. Just screwed to the wall doesn't make it so.

especially an illuminated mirror, that has been installed and connected to the power supply - if it were just a wall mounted mirror (non-illuminated) then I'd say it could be easily removed. 

pjs493

I’m buying a house that was someone’s second home but has pretty much been left empty for the last ten years. It’s old and tired and needs a lot of work doing to it to get it up to date. It was clearly a beautiful and well loved second home 20 years ago but it’s seen better days. When I first viewed, the estate agent mentioned the vendor was happy to leave some specific large pieces of furniture. When I completed the paperwork I listed two of these as being items included in my official offer. Since then the agent has suggested a couple of times that the vendor would like to give me other items of furniture. 

When I eventually got a list of what they were offering, it was clear that they just wanted to leave everything that wasn’t of any value and take the nice pieces of antique furniture. I politely emailed back to say I didn’t need anymore beds, etc and I’m already having to get rid of some of my own things because I’m downsizing by a bedroom and losing a utility room. 

It was clear that the vendor just wanted me to take their tat rather than pay to have it removed, so I’m pleased we’ve managed to resolve that quite swiftly. But if I hadn’t been firm but polite, I could have ended up with a bunch of knackered old sofas, beds etc. It was quite telling that none of the nicer things, like a lovely writing desk and grandfather clock, were mentioned. But they were almost pushy and insistent that I take some really old divan beds and other stuff that just needs to be skipped. They even worded it as if they were doing me a favour by throwing things in for free. 

ThisIsWeird

WOB77, you say you 'resisted' the offer of the furniture - does that imply that they may feel there's still the chance of some healthy negotiating to do?! I suggest it's time to be frank and unambiguous; refuse everything you truly do not want.
I wouldn't say you don't want any of it - if that isn't true - in the hope they leave some or all. Instead, be clear about the few items of interest, and make a fair offer on each one that you will be happy with.
If you don't know their value, then go for less than half of what the seller is asking, since that appears to be fully retail! And that's only for items you really like and want. Ie, items that you would consider buying yourself later on.
Any other 'normal' furniture that you can buy in any shop or store is worth only a tiny fraction when sold on - check Facebook Marketplace; you are probably talking between 5 and 15% for most. So, any 'normal' stuff that you may find useful in the short or medium term, but that you'd never buy for yourself, offer only these small %-ages.

Make a list of the bits you would like, and put a price on each, depending on whether it belongs to 'tide me over' or 'that really suits the flat'. 

If you consider an item to be a 'fixture', you may wish to add that term to your offer, but still make an offer, perhaps reduced even more due to that term (are you able to put a value on this desk?).

In short, I suggest that what you want to end up with is furniture that you genuinely like, and that compliments your new home - take advantage of someone else's eye! And make a low, but non-insulting, offer on these - you do want them, and it's fair to 'buy' them. Ok, you are taking slight advantage of the seller looking for an easy life, but hey. So, ~25%-ish?
Anything you do not want, say so clearly.
Anything you think will tide you over initially, but you'd ultimately get shot of, make peppercorn offers on them; Dining table & chairs - £5/£10, that sort of thing.
If you like this desk, and clearly you do, then I personally wouldn't concern myself whether it's technically a fixture, since - if they remove it - you'd have to threaten/take legal action to recover it - would you bother? So perhaps accept they've done you a favour and found a nice desk that really suits the place, and make an 'offer'. This should reflect that they'd have to go to some effort to remove it, should fill in the resulting holes if they do, would likely find it hard to sell on in time, and would carry the risk of you taking action against them! So, 25%?!

Herzlos

Just make a list of the items you want kept and offer what you think is a fair sum for them. The contract should be pretty clear about what is/isn't included.

You can also ask that they remove the other stuff if you really don't want it, otherwise there's a fair chance it'll all be there for you to dispose of.

wiseoldbird77

The desk is just 2 pieces of wood joined at right angles and then one end of what forms the top is fixed to the wall. The room is just a small study. It has been made for the room. You're right, I do quite like it. It's one of the few things I do. He has sort of relented and offered to accept my earlier offer that included this but ignoring my current offer. It looks as though he doesn't want the trouble of removing it. It's likely it wouldn't fit another property easily. When I made this offer I thought it should be included in the sale but hadn't checked with my solicitor at the time. The seller was rushing me. I'm not going to go along with this. I am sticking to my current offer of just light fittings etc for the moment. He comes over as an extremely greedy and selfish individual and is a nightmare. He's quite capable of taking everything he can. He claims he's going travelling! More likely he's just moving back in with his mum. He mentioned having to put stuff in storage. That's going to cost isn't it. I have sold property with fixed furniture in the past and included it.

comeandgo

Second furniture, unless antique, is not worth much.  Stick to you guns and if you want any item have a look on Facebook at some local sites selling secondhand to get an idea of the prices.

wiseoldbird77

Many thanks all of you for your suggestions. I'm going to have a rethink as a result.

ThisIsWeird

wiseoldbird77 said:

The desk is just 2 pieces of wood joined at right angles and then one end of what forms the top is fixed to the wall. The room is just a small study. It has been made for the room. You're right, I do quite like it. It's one of the few things I do. He has sort of relented and offered to accept my earlier offer that included this but ignoring my current offer. It looks as though he doesn't want the trouble of removing it. It's likely it wouldn't fit another property easily. When I made this offer I thought it should be included in the sale but hadn't checked with my solicitor at the time. The seller was rushing me. I'm not going to go along with this. I am sticking to my current offer of just light fittings etc for the moment. He comes over as an extremely greedy and selfish individual and is a nightmare. He's quite capable of taking everything he can. He claims he's going travelling! More likely he's just moving back in with his mum. He mentioned having to put stuff in storage. That's going to cost isn't it. I have sold property with fixed furniture in the past and included it.

Hi WOB.

That desk is 'bespoke' - it was built specifically for that situation? Since it relies on the wall for structural support, that - in my view - almost certainly makes it a 'fixture'.

Pretty much the only reason the seller would remove it would be pique, but that obviously remains a risk; he sounds piquee. That is also why I don't recommend calling his bluff and saying you don't want any of it; for a start, it ain't true, and I think folk should be frank and honest. And also, some folk will put themselves to a lot of bother just to spite someone else (I once worked with a guy who removed the new front brake pads from his car, and put back on the old worn ones, when he didn't get the offer he was looking for...)

I presume you are communicating via your respective solicitors? In which case I'd make one final comm, outlining only the bits you want - or are happy to take - with a fair price on each.

I don't know if I'd bother arguing over the 'fixtures', unless it was made clear with your offer that you expected them to be included. For instance, attached - eg wall and ceiling mounted - light fittings are 'fixtures', unless the seller makes it clear that they are to be negotiated separately. Built-in wardrobes are, too - unless the seller dittos. Ie, the seller can remove pretty much anything they want, as long as they make it clear it was going to be. 'Kitchen? Nah - I'm taking that...' If they didn't make this clear, then it would be reasonable for the buyer to assume they'd be included.

Of course, anyone can change their mind at any point up until 'exchange'.

So, a final comm with offer;

1) Desk - I'd assumed was a fixture, but will pay £x for this

2) Mirrors - ditto - but will pay ditto.

3) The following light fittings.... assumed was 'fixture', but...

4) Dining table and chairs - a Facebook-style amount. Ie, very low (unless it's genuinely nice stuff.)

etc etc

In essence, for everything you are not too bothered about, but would be happy to use to tide you over, you can offer what you'd expect to be able to buy it for yourself, second-hand, from Facebook or eBay - ie, very cheap. 

Anything you do not want, do not mention them - he will have to get rid of it.

With the 'fixtures' - the desk, mirrors, and lights - he is allowed to change his mind up until 'exchange', so if you insist they are fixtures and should stay, he may just spite you and say non, and remove them. Yes, you could then say you are going to renegotiate your offer price in keeping with this 'change', but do you really want to go there? So I'd be inclined to make lowish offers that suit you, that you are truly happy with, and may be enough for him to not be an arris. Because he can do this, fixture or not, up until exchange - and then you'd have lost out.