AET for Light Touch £1437 net or gross

bygracealone

Yamor said:

The one (not so common) exception appears to be 'payroll giving', which according to the regulations would seem to be deducted from earnings for AET purposes.

Thanks Yamor.
That explains why I've been told to attend a commitments meeting. So 'Gross for AET' is gross minus payrollgiving, or is it gross minus payrollgiving minus pension? Thanks all.

NedS

michaels said:

NedS said:

michaels said:

NedS said:

michaels said:

Thanks both.  Now to try to get UC to even acknowledge all my journal entries regarding my SIP contributions.

Is there a complaints procedure?

So you are making pension contributions to a SIPP and UC are failing to take these into account?

If they've made a decision (incorrectly) not to take them into account, you would request a Mandatory Reconsideration.

If they are simply failing to respond on the topic and have not said that they cannot deduct them, then there is an online complaints form below which will go to the complaints resolution team:

https://makeacomplaint.dwp.gov.uk/

Thanks, we are currently at the no response level.  How long is reasonable for them not to respond to a journal request to let me inform them of SIPP payments, so far I have sent 3 messages, the earliest 2 weeks ago?

As this is a somewhat poorly understood topic, I would consider 1-2 weeks max would be reasonable to give you a response.

Have you received your first UC statement yet? If so, have a look at the part towards the bottom that expands out and says If you think we've made a mistake or want to appeal.

By paying you (even if it's £0), they have made a decision about your entitlement, so you can request a Mandatory Reconsideration (MR) and get the ball rolling to resolve. This will then go to a qualified Decision Maker, who should immediately identify and resolve the issue - it's not like this is new to them any more.

Please tag me on any replay if you want me to look/respond as I'm not otherwise getting to check posts regularly atm.

After 4 weeks, first response - the HMRC feed fob off.  Messaged again.  May try calling tomorrow - does that work better?

Calling will not help - the call handlers are out-sourced and simply pass a message on to the case manager that you have phoned, and the case manager has already fobbed you off once so is unlikely to suddenly change their mind.

If you have been paid (incorrectly), you can request a Mandatory Reconsideration for the incorrect calculation of your UC award. Sometimes the case managers don't get that point either, so you can point them to the section I highlighted in bold above on your UC Statement.

The MR should find in your favour and let the case manager know your pension conts should be deducted from your earnings each AP.

If the MR goes against you, you can then file for a tribunal with HMCTS that your UC award has been incorrectly calculated under a point of law (UC Reg 55(5)(a))

DWP should get this right at MR stage (so a tribunal should not be required) as they have seen plenty of these cases now. It's really frustrating that they still are not getting it right from the outset.

bygracealone

What can you do if an individual at Job Centre thinks they should use net for AET, or does the system decide? What information does the system have e.g. can it see pension contributions? Does it add pension contributions back on to the net pay, together with tax & NI to get a gross figure, to determine whether we have reached AET?

NedS

bygracealone said:

What can you do if an individual at Job Centre thinks they should use net for AET, or does the system decide? What information does the system have e.g. can it see pension contributions? Does it add pension contributions back on to the net pay, together with tax & NI to get a gross figure, to determine whether we have reached AET?

The system assesses earnings based on RTI feed and places the individual in the correct work group based on their reported earnings. The full RTI feed shows gross earnings (used for AET/CET) and deductions for tax, NI and pension conts used for calculating the amount of the UC award based on net earnings.

If the reported earnings are wrong (sometimes earnings are reported or received late which affects people whose AP ends around the time they are paid) then the work group may be wrong and an appointment booked where it may otherwise not be required. The work coach has the ability to override the work group where there is evidence the system has got it wrong, but in the vast majority of cases things work well and issues are mostly caused by employers reporting incorrectly or late.

Yamor

NedS said:

bygracealone said:

What can you do if an individual at Job Centre thinks they should use net for AET, or does the system decide? What information does the system have e.g. can it see pension contributions? Does it add pension contributions back on to the net pay, together with tax & NI to get a gross figure, to determine whether we have reached AET?

The system assesses earnings based on RTI feed and places the individual in the correct work group based on their reported earnings. The full RTI feed shows gross earnings (used for AET/CET) and deductions for tax, NI and pension conts used for calculating the amount of the UC award based on net earnings.

If the reported earnings are wrong (sometimes earnings are reported or received late which affects people whose AP ends around the time they are paid) then the work group may be wrong and an appointment booked where it may otherwise not be required. The work coach has the ability to override the work group where there is evidence the system has got it wrong, but in the vast majority of cases things work well and issues are mostly caused by employers reporting incorrectly or late.

Do you know if the system looks at gross wages including before any deductions for payroll giving?

The reason I ask is because the Regs imply that the payroll giving should be deducted (unlike income tax, NICs and pension contributions) for AET/CET purposes. But I'd love to know what happens in practice...

NedS

Yamor said:

NedS said:

bygracealone said:

What can you do if an individual at Job Centre thinks they should use net for AET, or does the system decide? What information does the system have e.g. can it see pension contributions? Does it add pension contributions back on to the net pay, together with tax & NI to get a gross figure, to determine whether we have reached AET?

The system assesses earnings based on RTI feed and places the individual in the correct work group based on their reported earnings. The full RTI feed shows gross earnings (used for AET/CET) and deductions for tax, NI and pension conts used for calculating the amount of the UC award based on net earnings.

If the reported earnings are wrong (sometimes earnings are reported or received late which affects people whose AP ends around the time they are paid) then the work group may be wrong and an appointment booked where it may otherwise not be required. The work coach has the ability to override the work group where there is evidence the system has got it wrong, but in the vast majority of cases things work well and issues are mostly caused by employers reporting incorrectly or late.

Do you know if the system looks at gross wages including before any deductions for payroll giving?

The reason I ask is because the Regs imply that the payroll giving should be deducted (unlike income tax, NICs and pension contributions) for AET/CET purposes. But I'd love to know what happens in practice...

Sorry, I don't I'm afraid, as I've never seen a real world example of payroll giving on UC.

Yamor

NedS said:

Yamor said:

NedS said:

bygracealone said:

What can you do if an individual at Job Centre thinks they should use net for AET, or does the system decide? What information does the system have e.g. can it see pension contributions? Does it add pension contributions back on to the net pay, together with tax & NI to get a gross figure, to determine whether we have reached AET?

The system assesses earnings based on RTI feed and places the individual in the correct work group based on their reported earnings. The full RTI feed shows gross earnings (used for AET/CET) and deductions for tax, NI and pension conts used for calculating the amount of the UC award based on net earnings.

If the reported earnings are wrong (sometimes earnings are reported or received late which affects people whose AP ends around the time they are paid) then the work group may be wrong and an appointment booked where it may otherwise not be required. The work coach has the ability to override the work group where there is evidence the system has got it wrong, but in the vast majority of cases things work well and issues are mostly caused by employers reporting incorrectly or late.

Do you know if the system looks at gross wages including before any deductions for payroll giving?

The reason I ask is because the Regs imply that the payroll giving should be deducted (unlike income tax, NICs and pension contributions) for AET/CET purposes. But I'd love to know what happens in practice...

Sorry, I don't I'm afraid, as I've never seen a real world example of payroll giving on UC.

Right, ok, thanks.

But you are certain that the UC computer does automatically look at gross income before deductions for tax, NICs and pension contribs?

I ask because there have been a couple of reports of people saying that DWP have been looking purely at net income.

Also, what about people with fluctuating income? Have you ever seen cases where UC have agreed to average their income per reg 90(6)(b)?

bygracealone

Our gross was (all approx) 2000, payroll giving 700, pension 100, tax & NI 50. We were put into Intensive Work scheme. What Yamor says about Payroll Giving being deducted must be correct (other deductions combined would not give Net below 1437). Not conclusive about what system does with Pension/Tax/NI. 5 different people at Job Centre said Net is used for AET. Maybe they are all wrong - they even said where it explicitly said Gross on their screen, that was probably just outdated or wrong. We have changed our Payroll Giving for next month, so NET is above 1437. If they are wrong about NET, they are costing us hundreds of pounds, because the difference between it being gross or net necessarily increases our income so we lose out on other benefits. Anyway, hopefully gets them off our case soon and will enable me as Primary Carer of our 8-year-old to do the school run, which I have been unable to do the last 2 days because of mandatory meetings, under threat of sanctions.

NedS

Yamor said:

NedS said:

Yamor said:

NedS said:

bygracealone said:

What can you do if an individual at Job Centre thinks they should use net for AET, or does the system decide? What information does the system have e.g. can it see pension contributions? Does it add pension contributions back on to the net pay, together with tax & NI to get a gross figure, to determine whether we have reached AET?

The system assesses earnings based on RTI feed and places the individual in the correct work group based on their reported earnings. The full RTI feed shows gross earnings (used for AET/CET) and deductions for tax, NI and pension conts used for calculating the amount of the UC award based on net earnings.

If the reported earnings are wrong (sometimes earnings are reported or received late which affects people whose AP ends around the time they are paid) then the work group may be wrong and an appointment booked where it may otherwise not be required. The work coach has the ability to override the work group where there is evidence the system has got it wrong, but in the vast majority of cases things work well and issues are mostly caused by employers reporting incorrectly or late.

Do you know if the system looks at gross wages including before any deductions for payroll giving?

The reason I ask is because the Regs imply that the payroll giving should be deducted (unlike income tax, NICs and pension contributions) for AET/CET purposes. But I'd love to know what happens in practice...

Sorry, I don't I'm afraid, as I've never seen a real world example of payroll giving on UC.

Right, ok, thanks.

But you are certain that the UC computer does automatically look at gross income before deductions for tax, NICs and pension contribs?

I ask because there have been a couple of reports of people saying that DWP have been looking purely at net income.

I honestly don't know for sure - back when I was a WC and seeing such cases regularly, the AET was below the tax threshold, so those with earnings at or below the AET would not have been paying tax or NI, so their net and gross earnings would have been the same.

Yamor said:

Also, what about people with fluctuating income? Have you ever seen cases where UC have agreed to average their income per reg 90(6)(b)?

No, I've never seen a case where fluctuating income has been formally averaged under UC regs. Work Coaches do have the ability to manually override the work group, and I have seen many cases where earnings drop below the AET for an AP, and the WC applies an override stating the claimant is working enough and checks again next month. This process is often abused where the claimant will say they are working 16h (or whatever), but the received earnings do not reflect that.

I'm not even sure a formal process exists to enact reg 90(6)(b).

bygracealone

Yamor said:

NedS said:

bygracealone said:

What can you do if an individual at Job Centre thinks they should use net for AET, or does the system decide? What information does the system have e.g. can it see pension contributions? Does it add pension contributions back on to the net pay, together with tax & NI to get a gross figure, to determine whether we have reached AET?

The system assesses earnings based on RTI feed and places the individual in the correct work group based on their reported earnings. The full RTI feed shows gross earnings (used for AET/CET) and deductions for tax, NI and pension conts used for calculating the amount of the UC award based on net earnings.

If the reported earnings are wrong (sometimes earnings are reported or received late which affects people whose AP ends around the time they are paid) then the work group may be wrong and an appointment booked where it may otherwise not be required. The work coach has the ability to override the work group where there is evidence the system has got it wrong, but in the vast majority of cases things work well and issues are mostly caused by employers reporting incorrectly or late.

Do you know if the system looks at gross wages including before any deductions for payroll giving?

The reason I ask is because the Regs imply that the payroll giving should be deducted (unlike income tax, NICs and pension contributions) for AET/CET purposes. But I'd love to know what happens in practice...

Hi Yamor, may I ask which Regs distinguish between Payroll Giving & other deductions? Reg55 groups them all together. Reg99 refers to 55. Is there another that I'm missing? It makes sense to me, given the Hours x NLW x 52/12 calculation, that gross is used, but the employed earnings reference at the end of 99 points to 55, which uses net, deducting all 4. Citizen's Advice website says gross is used for AET, but simply says that that is before tax, with no mention of NI/pension/payroll giving. I'm trying to look at Regs, as final authority, but maybe they are written in a way that is subject to interpretation. Thanks again.